The Boonafide Experience
The Boonafide Experience
S2 E6- Eunice Chen: Founder of Enlight & Cloud9 Adviser
Eunice created Enlight for everyone to learn about the esports industry. She does this by curating masterclasses from the top leaders in esports, and an intimate community where members have the opportunity to make valuable connections. She didn't get here overnight though, her experience includes 10+ years at Riot Games and was a founding executive at Cloud9 Esports. She built Enlight because she wished she had a program like this when she was starting out. I am so incredibly excited for you to listen to this episode!
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Good morning, and welcome to the Boonafide Experience Podcast. I'm your host, Kyle. But really, people just call me Boona. This is a business podcast with a hyper focus on esports and the creator economy. If you're not subscribed already, please go and hit that subscribe button. Doing so supports the channel and gets this content in front of people who need to see it. If you have a favorite part of the episode, or have suggestions for future episodes, please let me know in the comment section below. I have some exciting new enhancements slated to be released in the beginning of May. So be sure you're following me on Twitter, which is@boonafidegaming for the most recent updates. Thank you so much for being here. And let's go and get started with the show. Good evening, Eunice. How are you?
Eunice Chen:Hi, good to see you.
Kyle Warren:You as well you as well. Thank you. Thank you so much for making some time to come on the podcast today. I really appreciate it.
Eunice Chen:You're welcome. It's it's really fun to be able to deep dive into different topics and a little bit more about myself. I'm always usually interviewing other people. So I'm very excited to do this.
Kyle Warren:I heard the same thing because I had one of my get one of my very first guests that I had on his name was a Guy Blaze, Blase Spencer he does the Gears of War, commentating. And he was he was so pumped, because he's just like, "I'm so used to asking pro players questions. I'm like, man, like he's like, let me get the vibe, right? Let me get this because like, I want to answer some questions."
Eunice Chen:Yeah, it's so interesting, because I'm always thinking about what I'm teaching the members at Enlight, or how to extract the information from the speakers who knows so much, and getting them to share their experiences. And usually, when I speak, it's on a panel or it's, you know, a prepared talk on a certain topic. So yeah, this will be fun and authentic. And let's get to it.
Kyle Warren:Absolutely. So speaking about Enlight, you know, give us a little bit of insight to what Enlight is, and, you know, what do you Who are you? What do you do a little bit?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, well, Enlight is something I started this year, late last year, actually. And essentially, it's a way for me to give back to the community. And through my 10 plus years in esports, I've really realized that there's a gap between people that are already inside the industry, and they just happen to be at the right place at the right time, similar to myself and a lot of my colleagues. And there's a gap between people like us, that companies are always trying to gain experience from and hire and even poach from other companies. But then the people who are trying to get into the industry, they have all the same skills, they just don't necessarily have the experience on their resume. And sometimes they don't even know how esports work, so they don't actually understand how their skill set can fit inside the industry. And a lot of this information right now is locked in people's brains, right? Like, I know how the industry works, because I've worked in it and seen it grow and help build parts of it. But there's no resource out there to really teach people how to understand the industry and how they can fit in there. So with Enlight, I started this late last year, early this year, my goal is to teach professionals how they can start and succeed in their esports career. And I do that through masterclasses from a lot of the esports leaders in the space, a lot of my friends and colleagues I've known for such a long time who want to also share their knowledge and building and curating a community in which people have like minded journeys and pursuits. You know, trying to really build their career in esports can get together and talk about the ups and downs of it. Right? And, you know, not a lot of people understand what it's like to pursue a journey in esports or even work in esports. And so the community element, and having a safe space to talk about how we're going through those, those different paths and how we're all approaching tough situations has been incredible. And, you know, seeing Enlight blossom and seeing the positive reception around it and just learning so much myself from the masterclasses and from the community members has been incredible.
Kyle Warren:And I love that in full disclosure to everyone listening that is how I met Eunice was I actually signed up for Enlight on Twitter and on social media. And I always found a fast like I loved I loved her flow of how she asked questions to not only the the quality-level of guests that she she brings on I mean, these are people who not only have been in the industry but have been there a long time who have you know, made a name for themselves. And it's a really, it's a really fun environment. And so just it's kind of it's it's fun to like, step out of that for a little bit and talk to Eunice, you know, individually versus like me being a part of like, you know, Kyle asking the questions. So it's a it's a pleasure to have you on. And this is such a, it's such a unique business. And that's why I ultimately signed up because I, I looked at I don't, I don't know, who retweeted it on Twitter, but that's how I found it was on Twitter. And I just started scrolling. And I'm like, Okay, this is, these are like a lot of question marks that I had, because I love video games. I love eSports I love but like this door to get into this industry is just like this mystery. I feel like if you if you're a Lord of the Rings fan, if you like on the very first one where they're trying to enter the Mines of Moria. And they're trying to like hit it with a stick. And Gandalf is constantly trying to say it but the riddles right there in front of you. I feel like that's what eSports is.
Eunice Chen:That's amazing. That's a great analogy.
Kyle Warren:Because they're just stuck there, you know. So, obviously, this business didn't just happen, you know, the usually, you know, we love to see like usually when businesses pop up is usually a culmination of a lot of years of hard work, you know, and experience and so I couldn't, I couldn't help but like Snoop your LinkedIn profile a little bit and like, look at your history and see, like, you know, you originally were at Goldman Sachs as a like in finance. And so I want to kind of get a picture of like, how this all started, you know, like, Where did like how did this journey even begin?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, well, I mean, it's been a crazy journey. And you know, like I mentioned a little bit earlier, a lot of myself, have experienced, a lot of the experiences I have been through are sort of me being at the right place at the right time. You know, I never really had a plan. I did have dreams. But you know, one of the things I like talking about in teaching now is okay, well, I probably would have achieved my dreams a lot quicker if I just had a plan for it. And I was fortunate enough to somehow make the right decisions to get me closer to that subconsciously. But it was never really a structure plan. And how I fell into eSports has been amazing, I actually decided that I wanted to work in video games. And this was because I first went to E3, the Electronic Entertainment Expo. I went there in high school, I think one of my friend's dad had a free ticket or something. And I went with a friend of mine. And at that time, we were playing Starcraft, Starcraft 2 just all the time. And going to E3 literally blew my mind, I didn't even realize how big the industry was. I didn't realize there are so many different kinds of publishers. I didn't even realize like events like that existed. And that was me in high school. I distinctly remember thinking to myself, wow, one day, I want to plan events like this, but I have no idea how. You know, I think I somehow did internet research and found out the agency that ran E3 was out in Michigan or something. And you know, I grew up in Los Angeles, I had never been outside, living outside of Los Angeles really anywhere. But you know, I was always pretty ambitious and entrepreneurial and willing to try new things. So from from California, I actually went to Philadelphia to go to school at University of Pennsylvania. And I studied computer science as my major because that was the only way I knew how to get into video games, right. I didn't think I would go work for the company planning E3. And there was no event planning major. So I was like, "Okay, well, I guess the next best thing is become a video game developer." So if I code the games, and technically I'm in the industry. I hated every moment of it. Like I cannot program to save my life. I have a four year degree in it. And you know, I still have basic understanding of it. But listen, it's just not my forte. And graduating from that. I was like, Okay, well, I hate programming. So I'm not going to become a video game developer. But what are my transferable skills and like, how do I What do I do next? So you know, with, with Penn being number one in business for undergrads, they oh, all of my colleagues, all of my friends went into finance, right, like everyone would move to New York City, which was a couple hours away. Like an hour away by train, got these high paying finance jobs living the 20 and 21 year old lifestyle, like having your own apartment having a great paycheck, like living in New York City. And I was like, Okay, I mean, that sounds cool. I'll take it. So like, I ended up doing that, you know, I did that for a while. Also realize I hated that. I was actually, I think, working for a consulting company at the time, and I had to help. It was management consulting. And so I had to basically review the finances of a client, which was Deutsche Bank at the time for a consulting company. And so I had to review how they operated and how they did their finances and where they were spending their money and budget and, and basically consult and give them advice on how to improve their finances and operations. And I was like, This is the worst. Like, this is awful. I couldn't care less what they do with their money! Yeah, you know, so I had a terrible time. And, you know, decided, all right, well, I guess finance isn't for me, I guess video games isn't for me, like, I'm just gonna do nothing, I guess. And I was just chilling for a bit. And my cousin, she worked a lot at at events like as a brand ambassador. So a lot of agencies exist in New York City, and they hire brand ambassadors to staff all of their events, you know, like the people who are like giving out samples or people more dressed in like, the branded gear and like promoting some brand. Everything from like, TV show launches to guerilla marketing campaigns, like in the middle of Time Square to, you know, anything, you could think of a new company, a new product. And she took me to some some of the events and I just attended. And I thought it was fascinating. I was like, oh, events, okay, I thought about events, you know, maybe eight years ago now at this point, or I guess, six years. This is cool. This is fun. And it was, you know, the biggest and like the biggest and most celebrated events in New York City. So I ended up talking to a lot of the staff and organizers. Turns out, you know, they worked for a couple agencies. And I ended up applying for a job at one of the agencies. I also ended up meeting a lot of different clients. So I met this guy who imported Russian vodka. So he would make his own vodka imported from Russia and get it in the liquor stores. And so I like started doing marketing for him and learned a lot about how the liquor agencies work. How like the tastings work, I just learned everything I could about the industry. And I worked in the liquor industry for a while. But as I was working, I met other people who also wanted my services. And so just by word of mouth, they're just like, "oh, you need like liquor marketing help. You know, talk to Eunice" and I ended up going from doing brand ambassador work myself to then staffing brand ambassadors, and because I would meet all these other people and clients and just like connect the two. And yeah, so anyway, that's like a really deep dive into you know, I just dabbled in a bunch of different industries, but from there, agencies do all kinds of work. And so I made a good impression on someone who introduced me to someone else, and so on and so forth. I ended up getting this huge client. Actually, there is a company Well, there are multiple companies, but there's one company in particular, who designs and puts up all the Christmas tree decorations Christmas decorations all over New York City. So you see those decorations like literally completely all over the buildings every single Christmas, like right on Thanksgiving. Right after Thanksgiving that was designed and put up by people, you know, they don't just magically appear. And yeah, you just don't think about these things. You're like, oh, wow, pretty decorations, but no one thinks about everything that went into it. But the company hired me to manage their logistics. What hired my company to manage their event logistics and the setup and the overnight shifts. So basically when the store closes on the last day, like right after Black Friday, the week right after that, the moment they close we go in with like a 100 person crew and start in different wings of the department store. And you have to have crews that are looking at these design documents. So they unpack all the decorations and they have to follow the the decoration design doc to like put them up in the right place. It's crazy. And then they have to be done. I think they go until like three. But they have to be done and cleaned up before you know the stores open at 8am. Yeah, so that was my biggest client. Like we put up the decorations in like Macy's and Lord and Taylor's and like Bloomingdale's. Like it was huge. It was amazing. Yeah, so that was like, I ran my whole my Well, I mean, I just learned so much about random industries that I really didn't get a chance to. So it was incredible. And, yeah, I think from there, you know, I ran my own event company for about eight years at that point. But on the side, I was just playing video games, honestly, like, I would be running these events, planning everything, and just writing and running my Gil and World of Warcraft. Staying up all night, right? So when Riot Riot Games in 2013, was actually starting to invest a lot of money in their Esports, because they were seeing huge interest in it. They saw it as a marketing play for their game. And in 2013, decided to turn it up and put a lot of money into running events at sports stadiums. So World Championships of 2013, it was their season three finals, was ran at Staples Center. And so that whole year, all of the planning went into what did the World Championship like, you know, two months look like and literally planning for that final couple of events. So I got hired in May of 2013. And the reason I got hired was that they were looking for someone who played video games, who understood the gaming audience. And I was doing that I was playing a lot of MOBAs, like Dota, and League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth even. And also, I had run my event company for eight years and had really high profile clients. And so it was perfect, it was a really good fit. And I loved coming in and really helping them build that event specifically from the ground up, but also the overall esports strategy when it came to the live event. So a lot of things that we see today even come from that, right, like, like thunder sticks, I was probably the first person in esports to build an order for Thunder sticks. You know. So it was great. I mean, it was just so much fun. We really had the sky's our limit in like, becoming really creative. And you know, on the community side, but really also on the back end figuring out all of these new problems like "okay, well a sports stadium is clearly not set up for internet, there's clearly not a stage. How do we actually build it out? How do we make it feel like?" And I can't even say how do we make it feel like something our customers our gaming fans are used to? because there hasn't been anything like it. So there's nothing Yeah, nothing like you're No. Yeah, exactly. There are no expectations. But, you know, we just like went for the best. And it was incredible. I think Crystal Method was our musical act for that year. And it just like, I don't think, I don't think I don't know, I don't know if that was the first time musical act has actually open for an esports event. But it was pretty awesome. So that's how I got into eSports
Kyle Warren:That's like a huge So wait, what I heard from that, like, I love that whole journey. Thank you for like painting that picture. Because never once did I hear like this was like your end goal. And like you were like doing things to get there. It's like you just like went with where you saw you fit in the best and what you know what the skills that you had, and from there just sound like you just like stumbled around and made it work, you know? And like, it sounds kind of silly when you say it like that. But I feel like that's how a lot of people get into this industry is they kind of just stumbled their way into it. Because as you were, as you were telling the story in the beginning, I'm like, "okay, like where is this level of like, how did finance connect to marketing? How did marketing connect to Riot and how did like you know," like so. And the funny thing is, like, you know, managing the company who put up all the Christmas lights. I'm sure that gave you a wealth of experience with managing an event although people aren't lights you know, there's still the entire management crew that goes behind it, and you probably understood a lot of just random industry knowledge that many other people didn't, you know?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, that's true. And it's funny, because I mean, I'm super fortunate that I landed where I landed and sort of stumbled around and made my way around. And, you know, I think there's two really learning points I always get from that, right. One is that it's okay. You know, I think I talked to a lot of college students or young people that are like, Oh, my gosh, I don't know what to do with my life, and I'm wasting my life. And I don't have a job yet. I don't have a plan. And it's like, yeah, it's okay, you'll get there, you know, you'll end up where you want to end up if you know, sort of where you want to go. And for me, I, you know, the second thing is, like, really, like, you will find your way if you follow your heart, but you will probably find your way faster if you have a plan around it. So for me, you know, I could say, yeah, maybe those sort of eight months I spent in finance, or like the sort of four years I spent hating every moment of computer science, or, like, you know, I don't know, eight years of sort of learning the ropes of the event industry in New York and random industries, like, yeah, they all, I guess, built my skill set and resilience and emotional skill set as well in different ways so that I could get to this point today, right? And if I took one of those pieces away, would I have ended up in the same place? Nobody knows. But, I feel like if also, I had a more structured plan, on the other hand, like, sure, you know, even if you as a person or listener right now, don't know where you're going or where you want to go, like, that's okay, listen to your heart, and you'll figure it out. But if you have a plan, Be courageous and try to follow and execute on that plan. Because you're making a plan for a reason. And your heart wants that plan for a reason. So don't be scared and follow that because maybe I was scared. I was like, I don't know where I'm gonna go. And I don't know, like, what event companies to go for. So I'll just do finance, because everyone else, you know, around these is in finance, so I wasn't very, like clear in my own goals, but you know, that's okay. Yeah, so it's like, really follow your heart and listen to what it wants to do. And whether you have a plan or not, that's okay. you'll, you'll get there eventually, if you're listening to yourself.
Kyle Warren:I think that's incredibly important. Because I'm gonna be a little mini spokesperson for I listen to a lot of Gary Vee, you know, a lot of Gary Vaynerchuk. And like, he's been echoing this, and it's something that you touched on was, you know, like, long are the days where you had to have things figured out by your, you know, by your 30s. You don't like, we're so young, and we're so brand new, and especially if you're younger than 30, like good lord, like, there's so much to there's so much life to be lived, you know? And we don't he and I love because he's like, most likely your parents are in their 40s 50s 60s. And they don't have it figured out. Right? You know, it's this constant dialogue of like, you know, it's the societal pressure, like you have to have things figured out by a certain age. And I think that's something that needs to be talked about a little bit more, because it's, especially with the in my in my sight with the way the internet works. And the way opportunities presented itself is that there is nothing linear about growth and progression. And like where you want to go, like, there's, to me, it's it. I mean, there's growth, but you're going to go here, you're going to take a right turn, you're going to spin in a circle a little bit, and then you're going to go that way, you're going to go that a little bit eventually, like you said, you'll figure it out. You know? And I love that you touched on that. So, one thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, do you think that, you know, I heard you talk like it sounds like the marketing and the logistics. were played a big part in what you're doing, and where you how you got to where you're at today. But do you think finance played an important role like working in the finance industry help you understand how all of this worked? all?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, I mean, I really understood how the world worked from from that viewpoint. You know, I think financial companies have a lot of corporate structure and communication and especially with the consulting company, like how documents are set up. How how you manage tons of files, how you like, work with other people on the same files, how you build a deck, how you do a lot of this corporate stuff that I didn't learn in school at all. So it was really good hands on experience, and from there, I was able to really absorb a lot of that information so that I could use it for myself, in my own company, right, like, I, I wouldn't know how to pitch any of the clients that I had, I wouldn't have necessarily like had the documentation, like a proposal document or like a scope of work document, right? Like small things like that, like, I wouldn't have known how to, like use QuickBooks or run my own accounting, or do all of these things that most people, most founders, like learn the hard way. But, I mean, it was still pretty hard. Don't get me wrong, but I felt like I had a good sort of corporate background, at least built up in like, the couple months that I worked there. So I'd say it's pretty important. Also, it's really important because I knew I didn't want to do it. So that like completely unlocked doors, because it's not, you know, like, knowing what you don't want to do is just as important as knowing what you want to do.
Kyle Warren:Yep, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Because I what I heard was that I was really, really unhappy. And then I was just a little unhappy. And then, like, enough years of doing things where you're not happy will motivate someone like you, especially if you have an entrepreneurial spirit, or drive or endurance to like, like, okay, we're gonna, I don't know how this is gonna work, but we're gonna make it work. You know?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think I learned a lot about myself too, in terms of traits. And maybe I was still pretty young. So I didn't quite have the emotional maturity to understand why I reacted to different situations. But I knew that I wasn't happy working in sort of these, I guess, mundane environments where everything is sort of planned out. And, like, there's no room for me to build. It was very just dry.
Kyle Warren:Yeah.
Eunice Chen:And it was stuff I just didn't really find a passion for. So yeah, I think it really helped me. Maybe it could have been less time or in a different way. But it really helped me sort of shift my my path in a different direction.
Kyle Warren:Sure. I mean, I gotta ask a question. Could you I asked myself this all the time, especially with businesses being built around things I love, you know, you know, video games, and now, you know, some of the technology around NF T's and crypto and all this stuff is like, it's it's fascinating to me, and I just, I just wonder if I was born in like the 40s and 50s. how unhappy I would have been, do you ever like ponder that?
Eunice Chen:That's funny, because I have pondered it. Not specifically in that way. Actually, no, you're right. I have I was like, how, because I didn't grew up with internet necessarily. Like, I think AOL just came out when I was, gosh, I don't know. 10. Or, you know, in my early teens. And so I was like, like, we had pagers, you know, in high school, there was no smartphones. I had to page people when I wanted to talk to them, or like use like pager code to send them messages. And I remember giving directions like if friends wanted to come to my house, I had to give them directions and right directions, like there were no GPS, or smartphones. So I do remember like, on occasion, I'll be like, how do people live without this super useful thing like a smartphone, or I think once I lost my phone, or broke, and I had to go to a friend so that they could give me their old phone. So I could use a temporary phone for but I had to get directions from them to get to them. And I was like, "oh, I've been to their house a couple of times, it should be fine." And I I'm halfway there. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm totally lost. I have no idea where I am." So I go to a gas station. This was like a couple years ago, I go to a gas station. I have no phone on me. I don't know where I am. So I'm trying to ask this guy for directions. And he just looks at me with the most suspicious look like who asks for directions? Like how is this a thing right now? Anyway, yeah, so like, there's so many things we have at our disposal now and like Internet sharing information, like all of these new creative items, like NF T's and things that can like change society. I guess the conclusion I thought through was more of and I didn't think much deeply about it, but it was more of like, you know what, every generation has their own problems and their own benefits. Right? Like I'm sure you know, right now we're thinking about all the great things and maybe they outweigh the bad things but like, Hey, we just went through a year and a half of COVID like, you know, it's been a tough year. And I guess because we're an end like we went through, at least in the US, like four years of crazy political, like, drama. Right? And so is this like chaos? Yeah. And so, you know, I guess because we're in it, it just feels like life. But I'm really curious about what the history books are going to write about it. And like, you know, looking back at, like past decades, it's like, well, they have their problems, like, I don't know, like, liquor was banned for a while, and there was war, and, like, they're a huge, way more dramatic and way more, like painful problems that they had to go through. But life was also simpler back then I feel like right, like, there was no internet where you could compare yourself to like, models on Instagram, or how good your life is compared to someone jetting around the world, right. They just like had their family unit, and they had their neighbors and like, life was easy if you had food to put on the table. So yeah, you know, I think I mean, I don't know where the sort of bar goes from, like pros outweigh and cons and all that. But yeah, I think every situation like every generation says different. Even now, I'm just like, worried about Okay, well, what are the future problems will have like now kids nowadays, growing up with social media? I, I didn't like I said, I didn't have a smartphone until, I don't know, like, my, I don't know, when did I get a smartphone? Oh, my gosh, I didn't even get a smartphone until my early 20s. I had a Blackberry. I had a Blackberry that I use for work. And I loved it because it has a keyboard. And so I could like type really, really fast on the keyboard.
Kyle Warren:And my just real quick, like for a while back, we had to type in like with the with the numbers before there were these keypads and these actual but we had to type in
Eunice Chen:Yes
Kyle Warren:To get to the letter V. We had to type in eight, like three different three times to get to these letters now.
Eunice Chen:Yup
Kyle Warren:I got really efficient with it. You know, it was pretty impressive. But like, we didn't have that shit back then. I mean, I say back then I sound like an old man. I'm not even 30. But like, it's okay. Continue. I had to like interrupt you there.
Eunice Chen:No, I completely agree with you. I remember, because the Blackberry had the little joystick thing, I could move my cursor around so and so I had my, "R", my "R" button was broken. So like I got like, I don't know, dust in it. And I would get so good at using the cursor to like, I don't know, copy and I use like Unicode or something to type the R instead of the R itself. I don't know how I did I don't remember. But my boyfriend then who is now my fiance but soon to be husband. We he bought me my first iPhone. Because I just I couldn't bear to buy, like, get rid of my Blackberry and get an iPhone. And he was like, Oh my gosh, can you just please, like, try this out? And of course, I tried it and I loved it. So you know. But yeah, I mean, back to my point where it's like, Okay, well, the next generation is going to have its own problems alongside all of the pros right now.
Kyle Warren:Sure
Eunice Chen:Now you have kids growing up with smartphones, like mental health and self confidence and self esteem is like a huge problem. I didn't have that. I mean, I think we all do as teenagers. Even exacerbated by social media, right? Yeah. So you know, who knows, like, Who's to who's to say what comes out better? Or worse? It's just it is what it is, I guess.
Kyle Warren:Yeah, yeah. I mean, we were I was actually having a conversation with a colleague, because we were talking about like, like, like, where a lot of like the creativity is and the friction of life. And it's like when the in the challenge and where the friction lies is where you usually get the most creative work. And it's where the biggest, you know, the most, you know, influential things happen. And it's like, as we're getting towards, like, a friction like, the whole goal of businesses right now is creating less friction. It's like, the less friction we get, like, Are we going to lose? You know, that spark? Are we going to lose that generation where kids, you know, where people have to go through some some really tough things to like figure figure it out? Like, is, or is this just a level of friction? Or is there going to be another level that we haven't even experienced yet? You know, so it's like, I love diving down these little rabbit holes of like, What's going to happen? What's there is, is it really exacerbated or is it just normal? Is it just our version or our perspective? You know, I I love you know, that's fascinating to me.
Eunice Chen:Yeah
Kyle Warren:You know, so I love I like, I like derailing the conversation a little bit and talking about these things, with, you know,
Eunice Chen:Yeah.
Kyle Warren:With COVID, though, you know, speaking of that, and I gonna bring it back to like esports and gaming, like, you know, but first with your business, do you feel that.. Do you feel that COVID had a positive impact on your business? Or did you feel that it was any way shape or form allowed you to get off the ground running?
Eunice Chen:So I have been really fortunate in that COVID was actually a really, I don't want to say good. I mean, it's been, it is what it is, but nothing bad happened to me or my loved ones, or people I know. And so it's been a very fortunate time for me. And it also forced me to really turn off a lot of distractions and really focus inward on myself and what I wanted to do, and it was really good timing, because I, you know, got pretty burned out from working so many years in the industry. And now with the whole world, like forced to shut down and we're all being, we were forced to isolate in our homes, like it was just like, Okay, well, I'm just going to have to sit still and think with my own thoughts, and be comfortable with myself, and I don't have any distractions to, like, you know, ignore that. And you know, it really also allowed my partner and I to figure out, Okay, well, what do we really want to do this year? And how are we going to sort of get through this time, and, like, still follow through with our plans and goals. And what we did was, we have this camper van, that we bought, and have used it on occasion, but we wanted to renovate it. So we actually drove up to Seattle with it. And yeah, I stayed in my sister in law's driveway, and she has a family up there with her two kids. And my my partner's parents are up there as well. And so we just lived there for three months in our van out, like off of her driveway. And, you know, all spent like three months renovating it day to day. So we would literally wake up, go to Home Depot or Lowe's pick up what we need come back and like work on like shelving or, you know, woodworking or things that I've never really worked on before. And it was super intimidating starting out because like neither of us really well, my partner more than I do, but I never did any woodworking of any sort. Yeah, effort. So I learned a lot. And you know, I think from that experience, it was a great Kickstart to. For me, like it was a great realization that I could learn something new, and build something new. And it made me ready for it. Because I was like, "Oh my god, I just built the inside of this van. And like, look what we've made. And I built it with my own hands." And I didn't know starting out anything about this stuff. And, you know, when when I talk about learning, and when I talk about things like resilience or things like growing, it's just stepping outside of your comfort zone and trying something new. But it's not just the fact that you tried something new, it's the fact that you give yourself confidence that you can do something new and that something amazing can come out of it. And so the more you practice that skill, and the more you practice, trying something, that skill, not the fact that you whether you succeeded or failed in that thing, but that skill of being comfortable with not being uncomfortable, is incredibly important. Because whenever you feel uncomfortable then like that's okay, you know, you can get through it. And in the end, those skills build up over time, so that you can keep trying bigger things and keep being uncomfortable. Or keep being comfortable with larger and larger, uncomfortable things. And, you know, that was really a very tangible example for me where it's like, oh my gosh, I've been, you know, stuck in my apartment for COVID for like, I don't know, it was eight months. And I haven't tried anything new in ages. And I haven't even talked to people like in person. And here we are hanging out with our family and people who love us and then I try something new. And it's like this thing that I never would have imagined. That looks amazing. And I'm like,"oh, wow, okay, I I'm ready to do this again." So that was a real catalyst. For me to get back into building a company and feeling that confidence and even excitement. You know, I think confidence is one thing but also excited. Like the, you know, my spirit is entrepreneurial. And so when I build something, I get really excited. And I had lost that for a while, like during COVID, and just recovering from burnout and all of that. So just sort of sparking that, again was, was the beginning of, of my excitement for building Enlight.
Kyle Warren:And I love that because I, I work for a company that I've been a business coach for the past three years, and I help people, you know, they get their paperwork, and they come to me, and they're like, "now what?" you know, it's like, they just got their LLC, they just got their Corporation, they just your DBA whatever they're doing, and I'm basically the "now what," you know, I was a part of, you know, I was placed in a, I was the, you know, want to contact account manager, business coach, I were 18 different hats most of the time, but, you know, we were we got people in partnered with a an affordable CPA, you know, an affordable attorney like and they were all part of these, whichever package they want all the way up to like a really expensive one with like a business plan and a website, and, you know, even a virtual call center if they needed it. So we had everything, and it was just really cool to see, I had a few clients that I had no idea we're gonna persevere through this, you know, and they took it like the IRS took six months to get her, like her tax ID number, her employer identification number. And she has built one of the most successful businesses during the middle of a pandemic. And I'm just like, there's gonna be like a case study that was written on this, that's going to be written on this world, like people that started businesses and the middle of a time where, you know, everyone was, like, unsure of anything, you know, this is the first time the whole world got flipped inside out, at least in our generation. And so I just, I think it's fantastic to see that because like, you started a business when no one knew anything. And when people needed a community the most, and people needed these resources, and I love. I love the fact that you combined a lot of years of what you didn't want to do. And yet continue to ask questions of like, you know, "what problem can be solved down the road?" you know, and then it's like a weird combination of like, what you didn't want to do, and then working in the industry, and again, kind of burnt out and then now you get to do exactly what you want to do. You know? Yeah. it's incredible.
Eunice Chen:And I think you Yeah, it's been fun. And I think for me, it's also important to be honest with myself that, you know, I that what I want to do changes all the time, depending on what my situation is, right? Like, and I like talking about someone finding their purpose, which is not as scary as it sounds, right? Like, oh, what is the meaning of my life? And it's like, no, it's not just one answer. You don't have you don't just wake up and know, what is the meaning of your life? It's No, it's just really what your goals are for that year, what is the meaning of your life for that year? Or what is like, the plan that you want to have for the next five years or 10 years, right? You know, and there's nothing wrong with having a goal and a plan, like, "hey, I want to pay off my student loans," or"Hey, I just need a job so I can move out," or, "hey, I want to live by myself and have like, be able to afford my own apartment," or, you know, there's all these very basic and common goals that, you know, are totally fine as your purpose, it doesn't have to be something grand or life changing. So, you know, I think for me, you know, I think I always start something just because I want to build something, and I love feeling uncomfortable. Sort of sounds weird. Like, it's like nerve wracking, but like, right at the same time, it's like the adventure I live for. And so that's just my goal, right now, I want to keep doing things that make me feel uncomfortable and make me keep growing and learning. And that's, that's fine. And, you know, if I can build something while do while feeling those feelings, that is helping other people or giving back to the industry that I care so much about, or you know, making connections where connections normally wouldn't have been made. That's even better. That's like, even better.
Kyle Warren:Yeah.
Eunice Chen:Yeah. So I don't have like a grand mission to my plan. Like I, you know, my purpose right now is just helping people in their careers the way I learned the hard way, but hopefully easy way for them. So that's just my simple purpose right now.
Kyle Warren:I love that, you know, and I want to I want to, I want to I want to dive into the industry a little bit, you know, when it comes to the problem that Enlight is solving, you know, when it comes to, you know, what the problem that you're trying to help solve like what do you think is like the biggest like, in your opinion, what you think is the big biggest disconnect between like people with no experience in the industry, you know, but they have comparable experience. Like, what do you think is like the biggest disconnect between people that are here and people that are trying to get there as well?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, I would say that everyone pretty much has a skill set that they like. And it's just a matter of understanding how that skill set can fit into esports. So, you know, a lot of people say, you know, for example, if if someone who has literally a couple people have said, "{Hey, I work in IT, right, I do IT at a college," or "I do IT at my local store," or whatever. "And how, how could I even get into esports?" Are there, you know, there's no like IT job in esports, as far as I know, and I'm like, well, "it's not necessarily the job that you're going to transfer one to one, it's your skill set, right?" The fact that you're interested in tech, the fact that you know, your way around computers, the fact that you know, your way around, whether it's like systems admin, or networking, or, you know, technical knowledge, like that's the technical skill that you have. But don't forget the the sort of soft skills and the emotional skills, where you know how to solve problems, when things go down, you know, how to troubleshoot, you know, how to fix bugs, where you don't know the source of the problems. And so you're like researching to find problems and solve them. You know, just when a computer goes down, what do you do? Like, how do you like creatively solve it? Right? So there's a lot of soft skills that also apply to esports. But again, people don't necessarily know how that transfers because they don't know how a job in eSports works. And so how could they possibly know what problems they would even solve? And so for a person like that, for example, who has a soft skills of solving problems and a technical skill of loving the work with computers? Well, there's literally like, I don't know, several jobs, I could think of off the top of my head. You could be an IT crew for production companies that work on esport events, you could be a production person that works with broadcasts and you're running the broadcast. You're making sure the system has all the requirements it needs. You could I mean, be in the background of a sort of video content production room, you could be like running tournaments, not just like the broadcast side, but you could also apply your technical skill to understanding Okay, well, here's how tournament's run. And it's like a technical algorithm in a way, right. And all of that comes with, well, and even for any company, there's like live services, like Riot Games has to keep their server up across the entire world at any given moment for millions of players, right? And that goes for any game really who have multiplayer. There's Twitch itself is like an entire IT company, for that part. You know, like, there's just so much and it's really like understanding, "okay, well, I have the skill set. But how can I tweak this sort of skill set to make it fit one of the jobs?" or "how could I apply to one of those jobs?" And because those jobs aren't transparent, like, if, if I don't know, like, Yeah, I know someone that works at Twitch, I have no idea what they do, right? I know plenty of people who work there. I know plenty of people who work at Riot, I don't really know half of what they do. And so my goal here with Enlight is really providing those masterclasses and like having someone go through their daily job to talk about, you know, what skills do they use? What skills do they need? Have they learned to improve on? What soft skills do they use? What kind of problems do they solve? You know, what do they just do from a day to day basis? And so someone, let's say with an IT background, who views and learns from that masterclass, they can then see"Oh, okay, so this person actually uses technical skills in their role, right?" Like, who knew tournament production required so many technical skills unless you're, you've run one before, like, you wouldn't know that,
Kyle Warren:Right.
Eunice Chen:And really providing transparency there. Like for me, I was fortunate enough to learn about all these different industries because I sort of fell into them. Like I learned how the liquor industry worked. I learned how the marketing agency work, I learned how events work. And so now I see anytime I like see wine tasting at a liquor store. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I know how that whole process came together, right?" Or I Go to an event. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, someone Someone had to like, think about this whole event, it didn't just appear like someone had to move that table right there. Like someone told them to move that table there, it didn't just appear."
Kyle Warren:Right.
Eunice Chen:And I actually have a lot of friends that do like animation and, and stuff for movies, and modeling and art. And now I watch movies. And, you know, there's like, I don't know, like or TV shows, and there's like a 15 second, or I don't know, like a five second B roll of like someone's bedroom. And there's like funny posters, and like, someone had to sit there and draw out and make every single poster, and it's just five seconds of the whole movie. And it's like, you know, just understanding how these little things work is incredibly helpful, because then you can see yourself doing that. So, back to esports jobs, like, if people can understand how esports jobs work, then they can see how their skills fit into that.
Kyle Warren:Yeah, I love that. It's, it's funny, the longer you work in a certain industry, you can just see, you can see the beauty and like what goes into so many different things, the more places that you've worked, I mean, especially when it comes to businesses and corporate structure. And like in especially with the liquor, like, like that is a I've only had one client that has successfully like gotten all of their liquor licenses for for their business. And it's an it's an absolute nightmare, like it is it is an absolute nightmare in order to get that done. And so I can really like, you get this when people do that, because I know the process and I know who they have to reach out to, and I know the headache that everyone has. And so it just makes you know, when you're when I go do that, I'll be able to understand if I if I do that I would be able to understand the value and pay someone be like you do it, it's well worth the money. Like, here you go like because just take this completely off my plate. I find that iron ironic that I'd ever do that because I'm you know, I'm a recovered alcoholic and a recovered drug addict. But the one thing Another question I had is with the with people trying to break into the industry, do you, do you feel that another disconnect? Or do you feel that there is a disconnect with people wanting to break out in the industry and like get this like job immediately? Versus like, like, get their dream job versus like wanting to get in on the ground level? And like kind of work their way up? Do you ever do you see that whole lot?
Eunice Chen:Yeah, definitely. And honestly, I would say it's very natural, right? Like, people don't really glamorize the hard work that goes behind something that comes out to be like this perfect. I don't know, commercial of your life. Like I mean, Instagram is a great example. It's like, yeah, you see someone's Instagram feed, and like they're doing amazing things. But do you know how much time they're putting in behind the scenes, you know, you know that they work so hard, 20 hours a day to get to this point, right? They didn't start out born with millions of followers, like they started out with zero followers just like everyone else, and had to work their way up there. So it's like a constant grind and constant hustle. And, you know, to each their own, some people love working and want to spend a ton of time working and going after their dreams and other people want to go after their dreams, but at a different pace. And that's totally fine. I would say that, it's pretty tough to just go from zero to 100. Regardless of how fast your pace you want your pace to be, you know, it's it's not necessarily easy to just go from no experience to getting your dream job at like the top company that you want to be at. And if you you know, I see this as a common thing where maybe there are jobs that help you in some way. Get to your final goal. So let's say you take this entry level job that you really don't care about, or is not that interesting. But you know, you need that experience to learn about the industry or to have on your resume so that you can like, get that other job or set the stage for that other job. And even if you have, you know, to wait like a year before that happens, like that's okay, because you have your whole life to work on this. It's a it's a lifelong journey. And it's not important where you are now it's important. I guess where you want to be in that sentence, right?
Kyle Warren:Sure. Sure.
Eunice Chen:You know, and it brings up so many different concepts like one that I mentioned earlier is or maybe I haven't mentioned earlier, but I want to mention is that your job and what you think identifies you doesn't actually identify you externally. If you're looking for external validation because you have the dream job at the top company in eSports or whatever like that's great. And maybe you get some clout for that. But if you're not happy with what you do, then it doesn't give you really a source of pride, right? That external validation is not going to fill up any internal holes that you have inside you and your spirit. And I learned that the hard way, you know, through finance, it's like, yeah, I have this great job, I can afford my own apartment in New York City, I'm living the life that anyone an 21 year old would dream of, bu I hated every moment of it. Lik it gave me no joy, you know, an it just gave me a lot o anxiety, because I was trying t convince myself that I shoul like it. And I have the perfec setup. And it's great, an everything's awesome. But fo some reason, I didn't like it You know, and same thing wit esports, it's, sometimes you'r going to be in a position wher it's a stepping stone, o sometimes you just have to b humble and understand that yo have to learn skills or lear certain things before you ca move on to the next level. An sometimes you're lucky and yo fall into that next level. An maybe you could just fai drastically. And that's okay you learn something from that But it's much less painful whe you are able to follow your pla in a structured manner, bein humble and being honest wit yourself, because you'll ge there eventually. And you'll ge there in a much less painful wa as well
Kyle Warren:You get to spread that pain over over a long period of time. It's microdoses. You know, it's not all at once. It's not a series of horrific moments. You know? One of the questions I did have, as well as tying back to the first one around esports was, do you think you when it comes to people not being able to translate their job skills, at the same time, let's flip it on the other side of people that are in the industry and people who are growing it. Do you ever think a lot of there's there's people that just don't know what to look for? Even if the skills are translatable and they do work? And the follow up to that is like, do you think the industry in esports will ever like mature to like, I'll just give an example. Because we're talking about like the financial industry, or like the medical industry, where it'll just kind of like this is the way it is this is the standard? Do you do you think it will ever get there?
Eunice Chen:So your first question was was about, I'm trying to remember it was about people translating their skills and finding the right jobs for it.
Kyle Warren:Yeah.
Eunice Chen:I would say it's a bit tough. Because if you have a great skill set, you can actually apply that to a bunch of different skills. But you know, there's a lot of different companies to follow now that are always hiring. And, you know, the industry is growing drastically. So there's more and more tangential kinds of companies. Like it's not just esports teams or video game developers anymore, right? It's like esports startups, there's data analytics, websites, there's communities. There's all kinds of really interesting, I mean, even NF T's like you mentioned, right? in gaming, and like, there's just all kinds of gaming and esports adjacent companies that you can work for. So it's not super traditionalist in that sense anymore. And I would say on that, no, it does look like the industry is growing to the effect of a larger, more traditional one, like, let's say, finance, or even sports or traditional sports, because now you see that it's profitable enough for adjacent companies to start building and start coming out of the Woodworks and start being creative about what they can achieve in the space. And there's money behind it. so you know, we'll really see how it continues to develop. But it was a great year for COVID for gaming, and esports. And people realize that esports and digital sort of spectator sports are around to stay. So if people are stuck in their homes, and they're continuing to use smart screens and second screens, like what does that mean? You know, how do we build gaming and esports on top of all of these other industries? So how do you let's say build esports on crypto? How do we build esports and gaming on like traditional financial models? How do we build an untraditional sports models which we've seen with franchises, right? And so, I think esports is in a great place intersection of all of these different areas of like Eastern culture, and music and anime and art, right? Like we can pull inspiration from all of these different industries and really make it our own and add our own creativity to it. Yeah, it's it's definitely growing in all kinds of different ways, o we'll see,
Kyle Warren:I love that because it's there, I used to get anxiety about not knowing it, like not knowing the path forward or not knowing like the cookie cutter way, if I A plus B equals C, you know, but also at the same time, when there's no real, when there's no real, like, "this is how it's done." We have that responsibility of getting to do that, you know, we, like we like, that's a really I don't know, like, to me, I used to get anxiety about it. But as the farther I go along, like, that's a really cool feeling. And it makes, you know, like me feel like I have a greater purpose. And it's like, wow, what is my voice? What is my responsibility? How am I going to be shaping that? You know, and I think that's incredible. Like, I'm going to talk about it for a little bit, I'm not sure how far down some of the rabbit holes around the NF T's in the crypto space that you've gone, you know, but I just, I look at this, I look, we've already proved concepts where like, you know, Activision made $1.1 billion in Warzone skins, or in Call of Duty skins last year, you know, Fortnite has all these characters, and all these brand partnerships, and all these deals, and all these, you know, you look at all the way back to the original was like CSGO , you know, all the CS skins and all, we've been proving the concept that, like people want to pay for digital digital assets for a long time, you know? And, you, you, you mentioned the intersection, because my, my main goal, or my like North Star, if you will, is wanting to run my own esports team. And, you know, that's, I had I had the vision, I still don't know exactly how it's gonna happen. But it's just like, I'm really bullish about that, you know, I'm, there was a moment that I had that I won't ever forget. And now that the crypto space has happened, I'm like, Oh, my God, "is this the vehicle that I use to educate myself to learn more about what this could be in the future?" Like, how does this even work? You know, how does the creator economy work? How does this and so I've actually, like, dedicated a lot of time to like, trying to figure this out, or like not, I don't want to say figure it out, but like, learn more about how my vision plays into this, or how like, what my part into this is. And that, to me, going back to the original point is that I feel a deep sense of responsibility, because when you're creating something new, when you're, as we've seen with, you know, voting laws, you know, and with all these policies, like all these really tough political things that we're having to undo. Once things are set, once the culture is established, it's so hard to undo that, whether it's right or wrong, you know, it takes quite literally, you know, an act of God to get some of these things done, that should have never been there in the first place. So I feel that there's this, like incredible sense of responsibility, I actually do and build this, like, the best way we think, you know?
Eunice Chen:Yeah. And, you know, I think it just depends on the person, but I love your perspective. And that, you know, we have this responsibility that we "get to do this." It's not just something we "have to do, it's like fun, right. And if it's not fun, then don't do it. This is not necessarily going to be at least a sort of entrepreneurial and growing side of it is probably not going to be super exciting for you. If you don't find it fun. So, you know, there's still pretty large companies like video game developers who have been developing games for a long time, like Blizzard and Activision, and, you know, we'll, we'll basically see what happens, games are going to be around, but games will evolve, and we'll see what happens. But I like that you find it exciting in that, you know, it sounds like I mean, you obviously also have an entrepreneurial spirit and running this podcast, and, you know, doing all kinds of cool things in your life. And so being excited by NF T's, like makes a lot of sense. And you have, you know, the not just excitement, I guess, not just responsibility, but the opportunity to build what it looks like and be a part of that. So, it's super cool. It's really awesome to be like that. But, you know, I also wouldn't be too worried about like culture right now. I mean, I don't know, it took like the sports industry hundreds of years, in a very different world to get to where they are today. But things just changed so much, especially with the internet and communities, like I guess, online communities, being able to just be spun up so quickly, like things happen overnight. Even with like, I don't know GameStop, for example, and
Kyle Warren:I was literally gonna say that!
Eunice Chen:Out of nowhere it's like, who knows, like you, we could totally think one thing is done and set in stone and like, I don't know, some random. I don't know some random initiative goes viral on social media and like, breaks all of our expectations. So who knows? It's exciting for sure. So I'm really excited to see how esports evolves in the next couple of years.
Kyle Warren:I am too. I like I yeah, I think it's incredibly Yeah. I'm incredibly excited about that. It's funny that you mentioned things that happened overnight, and it ties to some of the Wall Street Beats and, you know, the the Game Stock or GameStop and A&E or AMC stocks. There was actually what happened from that moment, which is something that arguably played a major role in Clubhouse's development is that the host of the good you know, there's the Clubhouse show on the good is called The Good Time Show on clubhouse. I love that show. And I had never heard about it until they somehow landed Elan Musk on there. I don't know how they did that. But that they literally broke Clubhouse that night, they broke the entire app. And they just there was no one that was able to get into it except the 5000 people but look at everything from that moment. Look at the level of guests they've had on their look at the like the the way they've driven the space in the and the awareness of all the in with these major influence, like majorly influential people. And it's just it's fascinating how that stuff just happens like at with a click, you know, the power the internet's incredible.
Eunice Chen:Yeah, definitely. I remember that night. I think we I even tried to get into the room. And then there were all these like other smaller rooms that spun up. And I guess someone was trying to stream it and all of these things. And I ended up listening to a stream. Oh, yeah, exactly. But that was cool. That was Yeah, who knows? Like people are creative, we'll come up with something random and totally cool. And totally amazing. So yeah, yeah, we'll see.
Kyle Warren:I love it. I love it. Um, we're gonna start wrapping things up here, Eunice and I want to I want to touch a little bit more, kind of like towards your towards your end goal, you know, what is? Like? What is the legacy that you'd want to leave behind here? You know, and have you? Yeah, what is? Yeah, I'm gonna leave it that what is the legacy you want to leave behind here?
Eunice Chen:So I would say that the legacy I want to leave behind is really being known for. Okay, let me rephrase that the legacy I want to leave behind is that I have made an impact on something in the industry that I care so much about, and whether that's helping individual people, whether that's helping connect to companies, whether that's creating a program that can further scale, and help more people, you know, or whether it's me just individually mentoring, and helping people like all of that really fulfills me and all of that really makes me care about what I do makes me excited to wake up in the morning, and helps me get through, like, either boring times, or scary times. So, you know, I think my real mission here is just being true to myself, and combining what I know best, which is building stuff with what I want to do the most, which is helping others. And Enlight has been great for that. And I'm just constantly building and constantly being amazed by people people's reaction and positive reception to it. So we'll see what it becomes I I'm just super excited and grateful for everything that it's been so far. So yeah, that's, you know, that's really my main goal here.
Kyle Warren:I love that. I love that. And I can speak to as a as a as a student as a as a member of Enlight. You know, I can definitely speak to that. There's a lot of opportunities that have come from that there's a lot of community that came from that. And it's, you have something special here. So I'm excited to see where this goes. And real like real quick before we like on this topic is that one of the main reasons, say like, the guests were great, your website's beautiful. The one of the main reasons that I actually signed up was because there was a, there was a part in there said, you know, I'm still growing. And you get to be a part of helping me grow this. And you left the door wide open for like suggestions and feedback. And like, we get to grow this together. You know, I may be in charge of this. And that's honestly, that was the selling point. For me. That was like when I'm like, "Oh, cool. Like, I get to help build something. This is dope."
Eunice Chen:That's awesome. I love it. Thank you for that very specific compliment. I love that.
Kyle Warren:Yeah, that was literally the selling point. I'm like, Okay, this is cool. Like, I like building things. I like helping people build things like this is cool. So, where, you know, like, where can people find you? You know, what's your social channels? Where do you want people to go? To learn more about Enlight and more about yourself?
Eunice Chen:The website is enlight.gg. So definitely go They're and learn more about what we do. And more new products and new things to come. I'm always thinking of amazing programs and boot camp and workshop ideas to come up with. So working on that in the background alongside our membership program right now. My Twitter is @EuniceChen. And the Enlight Twitter account is@enlight.gg. So find this on there and feel free to message me anytime. I'd be happy to chat with anyone.
Kyle Warren:I love it. I love it. Eunice. Thank you again, so much for coming on. This has been this has been an awesome conversation. I really enjoyed this one.
Eunice Chen:This was fun. Thank you so much for having me and inviting me and yeah, I will see you around. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Bye bye Bye Kyle.