S2 E8: Adam Fitch- Esports Journalist. Dextero.

Adam is a journalist who is currently the Esports Business lead for the publication site Dexerto, which has <8m reads per month and is one of the most trusted sources in the esports industry. Adam has a reputation for telling things how they are and more importantly is unapologetically himself, so naturally, I had to have him on the show! We dive deep into the business side of esports, how they make money, the current state, where it's headed, etc.. I even manage to sneak a little crypto & NFT talk right and relate it to esports :).

This episode is an hour and a half long, so go ahead, get comfortable, and enjoy!

Boonafide XP Website & Patreon

https://www.boonafide.com
https://www.patreon.com/boonafidexp

Boonafide Socials

https://www.linktr.ee/boonafidegaming

Adam Site & Socials

Website- www.byadamfitch.com
Twitter- https://twitter.com/byadamfitch
Dextero- https://www.dexerto.com/

Transcript

Kyle Warren: 0:01

Good morning, and welcome to the Boonafide Experience podcast. I'm your host, Kyle. But really, people just call me boonah. This is a business podcast with a hyperfocus on esports and the creator economy. If you're new here or returning and haven't done so already, please consider following and subscribing to your favorite platform of choice. And be sure to turn those post notifications on or the little bell. That way you're notified every time a new episode is dropped. Now, as mentioned in some of the previous intros to some of the earlier episodes, we had some exciting new announcements in May, except they were in April, because I just couldn't wait to pull the trigger. We're on two new platforms, one of which is a completely custom website done by me and the friends at podpage. Shout out to them. I'll include the link below. If you're a podcaster looking to build a website, it's incredibly easy that links to all of your hosting platforms and their UI is just incredibly beautiful. We have everything house from previous episodes, that includes audio, video, transcripts, guest profiles, even a mailing list, guys, there's just no shortage of content here. And if you're on YouTube, and you're watching this right now, well, you would be since you're right now I okay. You will see that I have one of my bonafide gaming t shirts on this is my merch store which can be accessed through the website. All the designs on these shirts, mugs, hoodies, leggings, everything in between is done done by my designer, he's been with me for the past three to four years has done everything from my gaming brand to my podcasting brand to merchandise is a flawless designer and I consider him a great friend of mine. His name is art by St. If you're looking to get any graphics done, I will put his information down below as well. second piece, that's just one. That's just one second piece. We are we are launched, we launched a brand new Patreon page to provide exclusive access and benefits that only are that only are available to my patrons. It says everything from wallpapers to early access to episodes to knowing who my guests are weeks in advance to even asking my guests a question. And you all if you're a VIP member for three months in a row on my Patreon, you will get access to something that I don't even have in house yet. And that is an exclusive bona fide gaming t shirt, which you can only get by being a VIP subscriber for three months in a row. I know that's a lot to take in the website is www dot buena fire calm and the Patreon is patreon.com/boonafidexp. But if you're here for the podcast, I'm going to I'm not going to expect you to remember that so we'll go ahead and put all those links down in the descriptions below. And with that being said, let's go ahead and get started with the show. Good afternoon Adam. How are you?

Adam Fitch: 3:05

I'm doing well thank you I'm almost done on my work day where I know most like Americans are just starting now so I'm I'm very much warmed up I've been ranting and raving on written word so I'm happy to be able to do it via spoken word now.

Kyle Warren: 3:22

i like it Yeah, yeah, we're just I'm on my second cup of coffee. So you know we're we're just kind of getting we're just kind of getting started here but happy to happy to be here. It's you know, these platforms are really cool man and I like COVID in a weird way has been kind of a cool blessing to where like these platforms that allow remote podcasting to happen like have like really flourished because you know before this this conversation you're you're you're across the pond and I'm in Texas you don't I mean this would have not been possible so

Adam Fitch: 3:51

no no I mean I mean like esports is hard like talking head when webcam videos and podcasts while while while of course but like watching like daytime television like news I don't have a television but like seeing like and news platforms and programs trying to adapt to how we do things even just basic stuff like this and obviously in like sports and search as well I it's been really interesting because it's kind of made me think a lot we've been doing this for years at like a high quality and and some some what you'd imagine like legacy media who have years of experience and all the money and equipment in the world absolutely shit. So like it just reminds me like, oh, we're not doing too bad overall, you know, and yeah, like obviously what we're using Riverside, it's something I've been looking into zoom. I'm sick of seeing zoom to be honest with you like the amount of calls be it both professionally and personally that's the thing. It's like, both my friends and my colleagues want to use it, you know? So yes, it's a bit tiresome, in a sense, like having to look at screens all the time. But I think like, we've never had more time than we have right now especially like in the past year to like go out for walks and stuff, right. So I mean, it's also the remedy for that stuff and hopefully We can kind of get back to some sort of normality soon. I don't think I'll be going to many esports conferences as often anymore because like, a lot of the value can be can be gained online by just a Twitter dm or something, you know, but yeah, I'm definitely, definitely grateful that we've kind of mastered the art of what we do in our industry. So it's been a pretty seamless transition on that front. And yeah, it helps you obviously, keep in touch with people and meet new people. So very lucky in that sense.

Kyle Warren: 5:23

Yeah, I mean, you know, and we'll dive into it. But you made a tweet about that. Like, it's like, you know, like these these esports conferences, and like, these marketing conferences are absolutely not needed, because we have access to people at the top, you know, like, right here. And right now, you don't I mean..

Adam Fitch: 5:36

Yeah, well, I saw I worked for Esports Insider, and they're a news publication, which actually makes money via events, right. And these events were conferences, so I've been to London a couple of times in New York with them. And there was supposed to be like Manila and Stockholm that obviously got cancelled because of what's going on. But I was working them so I wasn't necessarily networking all the time. Anyway, when I say work in them, I was just writing a bit bits and bobs and just mincing around really doing our jobs. But like, now, I, I don't really see the purpose, it's good to have a chinwag and just catch up with old friends and such, right. But I mean, I don't think that's worth the 300 quid ticket or whatever it is, and over the travel costs and stuff, right. And then they pivoted to online events. And I'm not for injera love Sam and the people there. But it's just, it's literally just like sheduled zoom calls with people at the top is like, once you've seen it once, you've kind of seen it 50 times at this point, right. And it's, it's also now i'd rather watch specialized conversations, like, on demand whenever the hell I want. So like a YouTube channel is much better to me, if someone say I decided to interview all the CEOs and C, C level executives and such at all the major companies, that's going to be more worthwhile, in my opinion, at least on "Okay, next, next month, this time, you have to tune in," and they may get to your question, they may not blah, blah, blah, you know, like a level of accessibility in our industry, considering there's so many different social platforms, and everyone's, like jumping on the stream. Now, you know, it's so high, it's just like, I'm not, I'm never gonna pay to attend one of these conferences. I really, I really don't need to, like networking has never been easier.

Kyle Warren: 7:11

Yeah, it really has. And I kind of stumbled my way into this, like podcasts and like in and I kind of stumbled into, like, what networking really was, you know, and I'd never done it before. And so I said, this is this is way better. And I mean, to what you're talking about, like with YouTube and podcasts, like, I've gained more, you know, like, I'm about like, halfway through university, and I'm not sure if I'm even going to finish because I've gained more knowledge and more insight from listening to podcasts and YouTube videos from people who have done it. And they they give me exactly what I need to hear. And I don't need to sit through a lecture or five minutes of it. I'm interested in and 95 minutes, I just have to be there. You know what I mean?

Adam Fitch: 7:46

yeah, it's the same as books, like it distills knowledge passed on from fucking decades upon decades. And then you can just flick to whichever parts that are applicable to your life or your interest, right? So it's the same kind of thing, like having like the on demand knowledge at any moment. Like, it's insane. So I didn't go to university like there was, there was no chance I was going to get I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was like, I don't want to get into 27,000 pounds worth of debt for something I may not like, you know, and then eventually came to me later on. Like, I never would have guessed that being journalism, by the way, like, not all I was decent, like English and writing school. But it was not something I plan to do by any means. You know, so like, I if I went the usual path, I'd probably be like a IT technician or like support staff, like a tech company, very different path, you know, and so, yeah, I think the accessibility we've got not only to people, but to knowledge, like distilled knowledge on demand, whatever the hell we want is insane. And I don't know, I there's some merit to obviously, the institutional education and the legacy education and stuff right there. Of course, there is, yeah, in a landscape that's changing all the time. It's not something I find too useful. But I mean, I'm not going to go on about esports certifications and stuff too much unless you want to bring that up. But my God, man, I just hope people just don't fall for things just just because they seem God, you know, like, just because it's like deemed a natural path. Like my parents just fully expected me to go as far as I could in education. And the guy I grew up with, so I'm 26, the guy I grew up in out of school for 10 years now out of college for eight years, the guy I grew up with living opposite me best mates from like one years old. He's still at university. Now. 10 years after I left school, eight years after I left college, he's doing a doctorate in middle medieval English Oxford University, like he's gone an entire different path to me. And he's probably going to be studying until he's like 28,29, maybe 30, you know, and then he's got to try and go out and get a job in a highly specialized sector. Whereas I've been working for eight years now and I've got all the work experience you need. And all the little bits and bobs that you get from that, you know, so two very different paths and no doubt you'll earn more money eventually, but like that's a lot of money. He just he owes back and sure A lot of pressure to find something that's within his field of knowledge, then, you know, so exactly, I don't think he's doing anything wrong. And I, I like, local, I celebrate what he's doing. It's a massive commitment. And it obviously he's found what he's interested in, but it's just not for everyone, you know,

Kyle Warren: 10:13

certain infamy. And to tell you the truth, or like any doctor, I go, see, I'd want them to go have their doctorate, you know, I'd want them to like, you know, have their masters you don't mean like, they're it's not a dead industry and like, I'm happy brought that up, because it's not, it's not that it's not needed, it is very well needed, like my tax accountant, I want to know that they've gone to school for it. Like, if I hire a lawyer, on make sure that they're, like, know what they're talking about, you know, so it's but for the for the most, like for non specialized industries, like it's we're good at, we're in this weird, like transition period, where it's just, it's kind of it can get your foot in the door, but you don't really need to put your foot in the door, you know, like, you can open the door yourself, like you've been given the keys, like the internet is kind of like that, that that that catalyst, you know, versus if you spend that you got to spend the time regardless, right? You know, it's just how you want to spend it. And now that you have the choice to spend it, here's how you do spend it,

Adam Fitch: 11:01

for sure, if you want to get into marketing, like the channels changed so often. And like we don't even know, the, like, the algorithms on these platforms anymore. So how are you going to teach that I don't know. And obviously, that will change in a year's time or whatever. So great, I think like going to university, if some flat marketing like probably don't make sense, I'd suggest like getting like the top 10 books on Amazon or your local bookshop. And learning the principles and working out like the foundational knowledge from those things like the human psychology aspect, right and set standards that have transcended time as such. And then from there, you can apply that to however, it tends to take form or whatever shape or form it appears in. But yeah, I could have gone the marketing route as I had a marketing job at some point. And I was kind of thinking about it, I in fact, the company I was working for at the time, spent like 2000 pounds, get me on some diploma. And I did I did about a week's worth of it, and then stopped to left the job and started to do what I'm doing now. Which I do apologize to them for, but it just it just cemented To me it was like, I don't I don't need this shit. Like just just having, obviously, as you say, depends on what's what, like, if you're a doctor, I don't want your level of experience to be like googling symptoms, you know, because I can do that myself. Like you need to have some specialist knowledge there. But yeah, some some elements, some aspects, some sectors, I think, like having the foundational knowledge and often then you can adapt that and bend it your will in a sense and make stuff happen that way. And that that save you an infinite about our money time. effort, like the amount of time you're not waste is insane, that you can apply somewhere else. And then like actually applying those foundations, maybe getting them wrong for the first year is going to be a lot more educational than sit in a lecture where 5% of it applies to your interests and needs, you know?

Kyle Warren: 12:42

yeah, we don't we don't learn anything by like, we don't learn anything by by 100% success rate. I mean, like, I mean, we we fail a lot more than than we then we succeed. And that's like, that's not at least the only way I've learned if someone else has done something different and wants to give me some insight. I'd be happy to to hear that. But you know, I want to want to do just a quick a quick, brief introduction, yo, you know, Adam, like, how did you you know, who are you? What do you do? How did you stumble into this industry? And just kind of give us like a quick, a quick synopsis here.

Adam Fitch: 13:11

Sorry, I talked so much. We didn't even get to the intro.

Kyle Warren: 13:14

This is gonna be a good podcast.

Adam Fitch: 13:16

Yeah, I'm on so so I'm a journalist. I'm, like the only business journalist that to Dexerto, which gets like 8 million reads a month, like every day in this amount. I'm called the business content lead. But that just means I'm leading the business content, but I'm the only one that who does that. So whatever. It's not impressive whatsoever. So I'm just I'm just a journalist, I'm just a writer occasionally do opinion pieces and stuff. But my bread and butter is, you know, speaking to the right people and trying to get the truth out there. Because there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in the industry. I used to be the editor or Esports Insider, which is a trade like business to business publication. I look back and I could have done more better now. But I needed that experience and this experience to be able to get to that point, right. So now think of an okay job. And before that I was freelancing across across the board really like dabbling in like pub G and a bit of League writing and stuff, right? But I've never, never really been like a games journalist per se. It's almost besides those odd bits of freelancing where basically I just needed the money to be able to live Sure. Yeah, and you know, spray get your name out there and stuff, right? You collect like bylines like it's Pokemon or something. Just try and get every site you can like, you can get all like Thanos getting the Infinity Stones. And yeah, I fell into like journalism, specifically, like business journalism, when I decided I'm going to try and get into esports. Right. And this was, I think, early 2017, like, right at the beginning in January. And I was 2017. Wow. Or is it 2018? I don't know I'm

Kyle Warren: 14:43

I see that I follow your Twitter. Yeah, getting I'm getting old. I can't remember like three three to four years ago. Right? I know that we didn't do any favors. And the fact is like how far my time now I have already used all my brain power today but No, I, I googled esports news. And and I opened up all of the publications I could find, emailed all the contacts I could find. So all the press emails or media emails wherever, maybe contact emails, and one, one or two got back to me one, especially that I remember was Esports. Insider, they said to give you a two week trial, and it was basically just once a day, I'll regurgitate a press release. You know, and I didn't actually understand before I started that, but it was a business publication. And I didn't understand the ecosystem, the infrastructure on esports by any means. I, I got into esports as I found in like 2008, like in Call of Duty. So I was like playing with hex, and like all the competitive snipers, and then OpTic got into game battles, and I kind of followed there, then I was playing dextero rules, which is basically like the European MLG. At the time, this is like a big stakes had a scenes that have an x and it was just a forum, you'd go in that have their own rules, you go in and say looking for looking for a scrim looking for a team. And I just kind of followed it for out there. And that was about it. Really, I just played I tried to go to a LAN when I was 14. So I'd go pro, but it was across the country and the woman let me go by myself, I was 14 years old, good on her. Decent mother. And, you know, it never really went anywhere on that front. I watched I enjoyed and then I kind of fell out of it a bit. Maybe 2015 until I, for whatever reason, decided to play a bit more and then watch again. And then, you know, I discovered like Overwatch league which is happening at that time. So that was interesting to watch. Yeah, right. And then I was aware of Halo. I used to play Halo and stuff. So I just started to discover really how vast esports was. And since I've actually realized that esports doesn't exist, it is literally just an umbrella term for like, maybe 30,40 like sub communities with their own infrastructure, only ecosystem own rules, own format. Everything is different, based on each one of these, like league of legends are somewhat similar in premise. Right, but like they're, they're massively different the way that developers operate within the muscle, the different the amount of money, you know, I mean, so I didn't realize all of that until I just put in put in the reps, basically. So So yeah, I write about like the industry and the business side of things. I'm breaking my stories again. Now I'm back in that game I have a weekly column where I piss people off a lot.

Adam Fitch: 17:17

I piss a lot of people off. Yeah, I think my two most read columns, opinion pieces are esports fans that exist, and you're not an esports expert. Yeah. controversial, but I mean, I don't really have anyone who's argued that premise of them. I try and say I'm wrong. So that's nice. So yeah, that's the last like the most brief version of that I can I can give and hopefully I've omitted most of the boring shit.

Kyle Warren: 17:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, it's funny that, you know, like, one thing that stuck out to me, where we have a very similar kind of childhood and were... I'm 29. You're 20. So we're right around the same. Same area. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, like, I was never, you know, when we were 13,14,15 years old. Like that was back when the internet was the culture and the internet was nowhere near what it was a very different time. It was like, everyone in the stranger was out to get you. Everyone was out to like, murder you everyone. No one can be trusted on the internet, like video games are still for basement dwellers. I mean, we're still kind of in that last part, but it's becoming more, it's way more accepted now than it was back then. But like

Adam Fitch: 18:19

For sure

Kyle Warren: 18:20

You know, for my parents to like, even even three to four hours because I grew up in Houston and, and esports events were in Dallas, like they had MLG Dallas. And I actually had gotten to play like invited to play as a sub for a halo team, you know, which it was, I wouldn't consider myself like, I was like, barely an amateur back with you know, I don't want to like tout myself too much. But like, I was very, it was a nobody team, you know, so. But But that's not the point, though. But it was like the point was like that, you know, you're not going to go to play video games with a bunch of strangers you met on the internet. You remember that conversation? Like how like

Adam Fitch: 19:00

Yeah, all the time, even if, even if I met someone who lived close to me, saying like a college lobby or something. And like, we became friends and we were friends for like three or four years, even if it was like an hour train away or something like, yeah, I'm trying to get permission and understanding that they were as much as friends as someone I knew in real life. We used to call it about them, even though it is still real life in a sense, you know? But yeah, just just being able to explain that look, these internet friends are actually potentially more friendly and more of a friend than some of the people I've got in real life but you can't see that because I've never physically met them even though I probably spent more quality time with them. Then a lot of my real life friends or you know who I've grown up with, you know, so having a conversation was I say tough, like it's tough, like the conversation was fine, but I tried to convince them otherwise. Well, yeah, tough part right. So you just kind of kind of concede it and I wonder where all of my Xbox and PlayStation friends are now. You know, like all the essential lost friendships.

Kyle Warren: 19:56

So you know if funny thing is man like most of mine have have had this appeared, but there's a few that like, I still get to keep in contact with like that. But you know, it's and it's really cool because it just it proves the point that you know, it was, it wasn't that it was wrong, it was just really hard to it was just so brand new and so different to how they grew up, you know, and they as a parent, they just want the best for their kid, you know that show that that's all they want, you know, and they see all these stories on the internet about you know about the strange new culture that's happening in you if you've never met them, then how do you really know them and it just but you know, that in a sense, that was the birth of like having these like subcultures and these like these really niche communities, because when I was in junior high in high school, like I, all I did was play Halo, I was a swimmer. And so when I was not in the pool, I was playing video games. And that was that was Those are my two lives, you know it because swimming was two and a half hours in the morning, two hours, two and a half hours in the afternoon. And then the rest of the time was video games, you know, and you know, but like the the, I only wanted to talk about was no one number one no one knew any jargon for swimming. Yeah, I just didn't even bother, you know, like it like that's some nerdy shit right there. You know, but number two, like with video games, I wanted to talk about the sick triple kill that I got in an MLG match, you know, and, and no one and they're just like, "Cool." You know? Like, I mean it just so the internet was this birth and are of these subcultures these sub communities. And I just, I remember looking back when high speed internet first came into existence back before we had dial up, I'm just like, this is going to change everything. Now I hadn't. I had no idea where it was gonna go. But I just said this is I can play with people in the UK. I can have friends in New York, I can have friends in California. I can, like the world got a lot smaller

Adam Fitch: 21:39

Now we've got Dogecoin. And yeah. Now we got very good never predict this stuff, right? But like I have, I have a little anecdote, but like so around the time I was being told, I can't like go meet like friends who I've met on the internet. My dad went on. I think it's a UK only dating site. So like he broke up my mum. And it's called plenty of fish. And now though, he's been married to a woman he found on there for like, 10,11 years. And so you're okay to go into a different city? Either way. You're allowed to go meet someone off the internet. And it's completely fine. But when I do it, no. And I don't know if it's like the gaming aspect or just like the age aspect. I don't know, when I became 18. Like, that's entirely up to me whether I go or not, but it was still deemed as like weird, or maybe massive health risk or something, you know, but I just find that funny. I only thought about leaving the day. I was like, my dad was literally doing the exact thing he was telling me not to do. And then he's found a lot of happiness out of that. So yeah, I'm gonna have a word of them about that. Nice to see what the fuck happened there.

Kyle Warren: 22:39

Right? Yeah, yeah, you don't have to have a little heart to heart with him. You know, want to want to go there was something that stuck out to me, you know, out of all your articles and your Twitter you know, that you post for Dextero there was you know, what was fascinated me the most and part of it's a curious question like because you you you're you're an esports journalist, you know, you you do a lot of breaking stories. And your your Twitter headline is probably my favorite out of any headline that I've ever read. You know, it says,"Yeah, because Adam Fitch is going to break the biggest deal in esports all his quote unquote sources are immortals, people. And he's getting to play like, and he's getting to play like a fiddle."

Adam Fitch: 23:13

Which is insane. Yeah, that's a reddit comment that so in 2019 knows everything going down with OpTic Gaming and infinite being sold. So yeah. So that was Jacob Wolf. And it was I reporting on this and this was like, my, I've done a couple before that. Like scoops are such I don't like saying that way. But a scoop was such a it was obviously my big break. And these people weren't really aware of me. Most of them probably still not. I like industry people know me fans don't like it's a weird dynamic, in fact, so I don't have a lot of followers, but the quality of followers are is insane. But yeah. Yeah, so I accurately report a couple of reports within the space of a week I think about like the status of the deal, gave some information in terms of like, there's a meeting coming up on X day, and this is gonna decide the fate of how this goes. And of course, it's not going to be many people who know about the business dealings of like these two huge companies right with massive backing. So yeah, for whatever reason, they thought that I was maybe just like a puppet for Immortals. And but I notice there was never any comments about Jacob wolf. So I think purely because there wasn't a trust factor there in me because I'm not really broken much that's relevant to them before that. They just assumed that and plus the just a salty OpTic fan, who will issue some of the worst and best funds in the world. And they didn't want to see their beloved OpTic, like get shipped off to another company that was going to fuck over which obviously happened over the next couple years. So they just decided to take it out on me mate, and I just found it fun, because they actually couldn't be more wrong. I won't go further into that, but like, what they what they allege or what they surmise happened couldn't be more wrong. It's just like no, you don't have a fucking clue. But like the irony of it, and like Also it doesn't sound fucking baller where it says like, yeah, as if Adam Fitch is gonna break the biggest deal in eSports. Yeah, I'm like that sounds fucking sick. Actually, I love you said it. Not me. So yeah, there we go. I broke the biggest deal in esports. I'll take care. I don't get my credit for it. But that's one Reddit user deemed it to be so so that's the case. Yeah, that's, that's something I've had in place for quite a while now. And it's, it's the best header I could ever think of, I think about maybe making up my profile picture to just double down on it. But I should probably keep my ugly mug there for now. But yeah, I'm glad you noticed that because not many people bring that up. It's just a funny little comment I saw and I thought I'd immortalize that.

Kyle Warren: 25:36

It's great. It's creative, man. You know, it's funny, because it was I didn't notice it up until literally, like two days ago. I'm like, Oh, that's actually pretty. That's actually pretty funny. You know, when it when it comes to, you know, when it comes to these stories, I mean, like, there's you grew up Call of Duty grew up Halo you grew up, I mean, you cover? I mean, the stereo is really known for Call of Duty, you know, I mean, they they're, they're a huge player in the scene Do you wanted too, and I know, you write a lot about that, and some of the optic happenings and there's a lot of news around that right now. When my favorite game and my favorite This is a completely selfish question, by the way, for you know, my my bread and butter. I grew up playing Halo, it is the game that does it for me. It is it is literally my pride and joy. You know, what do you currently see do you currently see with Infinite coming out? Do you see any major change? Do you ever see Halo basically going back, like being at the same level as it was back in like MLG 06,07,08?

Adam Fitch: 26:33

I'm currently working on stories relevant to Halo esports right now. So I, I think there's a lot of play in terms of popularity want us to have a good player base? Right. Preferably a lot of players because the sample the sample of players to spectators is quite low in esports. Right? So right, say it has 1 million dedicated players, maybe 10%. or want to see the elite play, which is probably a very generous gift, right? Like saying that's the case. But if you just break it on either side, so 100,000 people there. And then and then you have to, I guess get get them to stick around. And then you have to be able to monetize them both on the team side on the league side. And a lot of that is down to the teams in the league. So I think there's a lot of play look like they've got Adam Apicella's esports engine, controlling their ship over there. I think they've given him and his team a lot of trust. So it is basically MLG, like a reunion for Halo.

Kyle Warren: 27:36

Yeah.

Adam Fitch: 27:37

You You won't be disappointed our organizational support of teams early on when things get off the ground, whenever that may be I

Kyle Warren: 27:49

Whenever that is, yeah.

Adam Fitch: 27:49

I do not have a clue. Now. I think there's some stuff in flux right now. I will say that much. But I know our pacella has, he don't like being wrong, and he likes he likes what he likes. And he likes Halo and he likes COD and stuff. Right? So he's gonna do whatever he can. The fact that 343 have given him a lot, a lot of say, a lot of trust in this. I think she'll excite fans. Now, I think, yeah, and I think what they should be aiming for is not is not to replicate what they had, but to like far surpass it, because it was never like the biggest esport It was never the most fruitful of games to operate in as far as I'm aware. So for me, like I think that should just be looking to go bigger and better. But of course, like the fundamental thing is the game has to be good.

Kyle Warren: 28:32

Right.

Adam Fitch: 28:32

So and that's out of their control. So that's number one. So number one is Infinite being good. Take that off, number two is and then understanding how the fuck to like monetize it properly and create a product that is watchable number number two done and then third, from there, I think sustainability and growing it in fact, so like assuming the Overwatch league that came out doing well, but as since like, it keeps dying down. And they have to like shift the goalposts to make it seem like it's growing now. So right you want you don't just want sustainability, but you want that growth instead of the initial interest and then drop down which you get it like, sometimes you're get in Call of Duty every year, they've got the new title and stuff, right? So it's interesting at first and then you realize that it's a shit game, or I don't really care about these game modes or whatever, these maps enough. So it's not really so I think there's a lot at play there. But I have I have faith in Adam Apicella and his team at eSports engine and I think fans should have to Yeah, and I believe probably details are not too far away. Some details are not too far away, is all I can say on that from them or they'll get out there first, but I'm looking into it, I'll put it that way.

Kyle Warren: 29:38

Fantastic, man. I mean, yeah, cuz that's, I don't need it to be the biggest esport in the world like that. That's not like I just be in that the challenge that I see is that, especially with the community like they 343 has probably one of the biggest tasks of any game publisher that I've ever seen because they have the responsibility. I mean, like this is like Halo is like this. Star Wars The video games you know, to me like it's like there is so much legacy and there's so much nostalgia that you need to keep. But you also are tasked with evolving the franchise

Adam Fitch: 30:10

Yes.

Kyle Warren: 30:11

And and make it to where the zoo because the Zoomers are going to be bringing in the bucks. But you got to keep it happy for the Boomers who want them to start who who literally built Halo. You know what I mean? And, and I don't I mean, to be honest, man, I don't envy their position because that is that is one of the hardest fucking things I can ever think of doing. You know, and they, and they're simultaneously building a new engine. You don't I mean, so they're building a new engine that creates this open world game, and they're doing potentially a BR put it like how do you keep, like the fundamentals but still evolve it? And that's I don't know. And that's not something I think you or I could answer. But, you know, that's my, my dog, let me know. But, you know, that's just always I wanted to I wanted to hear your take on that. And something that you mentioned, is I think that's something that I've always been interested is that with the Overwatch League, you know, like, you have the the hype goes up, and then it goes down. And then you mentioned they shift the goalposts to make it appear like they're doing doing better. In that seems like a scratch on the surface to a much larger issue, you know, in esports. You know, and I, there's a lot of numbers, fluff, there's a lot of like, there's a lot of fluff in general around this, you know, and is, in your experience, do you think this is just par for the course to get to where it is more sustainable and company? Do companies have to do this? Or is there a better way? You know what I mean?

Adam Fitch: 31:34

Yeah, I think, well, I've literally just finished writing a piece about how like financial details are kept under wraps, unless they're perceived as the biggest deal of all time, right? That's the only way they'll ever put anything out. Right? So I think companies for some reason are afraid to make it seem like they're not doing great. And I don't understand. I kind of do optics and shit which I hate that word that's just like the word buzzword, really. But yeah, we all know eSports is not too sustainable right now. Like as soon as COVID hit like, chaos had to drop their CSGO team. I think I'd do it in Rainbow Six as well. Like North shut down on that. They've got the financial backing of a film studio and a football team. Why?

Kyle Warren: 32:10

Wow, yeah.

Adam Fitch: 32:11

Reciprocity dropped basically straight away. There's probably more consolidation to come light.

Kyle Warren: 32:16

So that made me upset. I love I love Chad. I love I got to meet him, you know, and it was just a sorry that Yeah, anyway, I

Adam Fitch: 32:23

No it's fine mate, it's fine, yeah, it was a strange time when it was just, yeah, see. So seeing these teams fall into nothingness, like just go. It's a strange one. So the the industry is propped up via sponsorships, Right. no exact terms of the sponsorships are ever released willingly as a rule, right? So straight away, there's smoke and mirrors and there's fuckery there. And then you try and understand the value of them, you'd never get that because they don't want to put the value out. Because say, say I signed a media rights deal. And I'm ESL, and then Blast have also got a media rights deal with the same company have to sign I don't want to put my value out there. Because then blast out that information. They can try and play things off of that, right? And they may be revealed that they've been fuked over or that they've done proportionately, well, compared to Blast. So there's a lot of a lot of bullshit there. Some like inside baseball, in a sense. Where Yeah, it's really tough to know the true state of the industry. This is my thing. I don't know how well esports is doing. I fear that it's not doing well at all. And that's why everything's hidden. Because if it was going, Well, people want to be bragging about the shit, right? If ESL were doing great. If ESL were absolutely smashing it in CSGO, they'd be shouting about that. If Flash were doing great, they'll be shouting about that. Instead, they'll shout about the investment they've got. But they've never said whether it's like a debt raise, or how much they how much the company have had to give away, all that kind of stuff. And that's why I'm thankful. Now we're getting public companies in esports. I mean, look, they're somewhat transparent, as transparent as they have to be legally but right doesn't mean they're giving away everything. So you've got like the like of Guild, like of Australis enthusiast gaming Luckbox, which is a bookie. So like, we're slowly but surely starting to get information in which we can actually work out the true value of these teams and such. And when we have more information, we can then create a better estimate of the true value of the industry and the status in until then, I don't have a bloody clue. And that makes it very hard for me, like I really struggle to get information on broadcast rights deals, even though I know all the people I need to know, on that front for the most part realistically, but they will never give that stuff away. But they're saying media rights is what's going to set esports free because if you look like the Premier League, their whole business model is set around like broadcast deals, television rights and stuff, right? And ESL and blast, right? Even Riot Games all reporting more and more and more announcing each year more media rights deals, but we never find out the value of those who never find out exactly what it entails. How long therefore normally is not a thing as well. The exact investment on either side is and is not known. So to me, they could just be given them a feed and then say hey go you get two people pay on shit about money. And they'll cast over it. And then they have to like, that could be the extent of that stuff. Like, that's not really that appealing, in my opinion. So, no, but then you've got some, you've got some broadcast companies that will do complete shoulder content around the streams and the tournament's as well. But I think that's a detail in the deals. So like, it's varying so much, but we just get this told the same shit. It's like, we're gonna deal with this, with this company, we've done a deal with that company. It's like, okay, but how do these differ? We don't know. And it's really hard to get this information. I'm trying my best, but there's maybe two or three good business or decent business reporters in the industry. Right? So at least in the West, I don't know about the property, they might have a couple over there, but then they're gonna turn around and stuff. And it's, if they say anything, they'll just get assassinated. So they'll just suddenly go missing and beyond in a forest or some mad shit, where Yeah, like, we don't talk about that in esports. We never mentioned about how fucked China is. And then you think about Oh, Tencent Chinese, and they own 100% of Riot. And I think like 40% of Epic, like they have ownership stake like Supercell, like across the board, almost. We never talk about that stuff. But But regardless, actually, interestingly, so that the biggest media rights deal of all time was announced recently between Riot Games, and Huya, which is Chinese live stream platform. So Riot Games, is owned 100% by Tencent, Huya is 50.1%. So majority owned by Tencent. And so this is Tencent going, Hey, Tencent. That looks good. We could give you money for that. And then the other side says, how much you got. And I can say 310 mil, and the light. Yeah, that'll do. That's enough to top the 300 mil report that came out a few years ago between another Riot Games, the you know, I mean, it's just so convenient, is actually groundbreaking stuff. So we'll get the information there, the financial information on those deals, of course, but not any other ones. So I think it's all smoking, smoke and mirrors and it's all shielded. And it's it's all played carefully because the industry is not in a great state. And most of these companies are not doing well. Right. That's the only reason I can think of because if they're doing great, they'd be fucking shouting about it from the rooftops.

Kyle Warren: 37:07

Yeah, I mean, it's so something that I watched, was what it was, has nothing to do with esports. But I think it's very relevant to what we're talking about was that, you know, when I was watching some of the documentaries on like, When, when, like web 2.0, was really starting to come into its own, you know, brands started to have social media accounts, you know, and it was kind of like that rise of, of social media and like, you know, Domino's for the Domino's Pizza for the longest time. They were they were blasted on social media, like their, you know, their crust was horrible. Their cheese tasted like, you know, was gritty, like, it was just it was and people were not shy about letting him know this. But, you know, it wasn't this, this podcast isn't about pizza, although I love pizza, but it's, um, it was Domino's response to that, you know, it touches on what you've been talking about, like they came out, like very, they came out very honest and transparent said, Look, our crust sucks. Our cheese sucks. You know, like, we suck right now, you know, basically like, what would make it better. And that was such a, that was such a voodoo thing. And like such a, like, you don't do that kind of thing. But now look at 'em. You know what I mean? Like, they came out and own their shit, you know, and they came out in public, you know, and obviously, there are two different company, two different types of industries and companies. But there's a talking about human psychology like we were in the beginning like that. There's a fundamental thing about being transparent and vulnerable. You can't really measure the outcome of what's going to come. But you know, it always comes. You don't I mean? Like there's, there's always a solution that comes when you finally admit what the damn problem is.

Adam Fitch: 38:41

Yeah, yeah. You look at Flashpoint, like, yeah, the only, I respect Monti, I think he's an honest guy. But Thorins genuine, he's, like, fully lived his truth at every moment doesn't search for the PR angle on stuff, right? So hit the fact that he just came out and said, look like these teams who spent$2m each like didn't hold it hold up their end of the bargain. We've not been able to fulfill what we needed to do they've got did not even have a roster. And if they do, it's a shit roster. Like they're not, they're not putting up the money that they said they would do. Like, I'm fucking out of it. Because it just doesn't make sense. Like they're not fulfilling their end of the bargain. And I've done mine. So does people dislike him a lot. For some reason, I don't really understand why because it's confrontational and he's definitely himself. But like, that level of honesty is good. It's just like, okay, he made it. He made everyone aware beforehand, like, I'm going to like detach myself from this the moment it becomes something it's not supposed to be. And look like, if he stayed with it, we wouldn't know half of the stuff that we know now. So that that to me paints a very honest picture of what's going on but you still don't really hear the team's talking about, like their involvement. Right. I've spoken to a few people involved in Flashpoint and like the B-Side the ownership group, who evolved, the old co owned the league, and what I asked them a question about that. They just say, yeah, we're working on it, you know, it still is gonna go well, blah, blah, blah. It's just like, I just own up to some shit. They never will. They never will. I don't I don't trust corporations ever realistically, I don't really trust companies, I don't think they can have any real values. I don't think they can uphold any values because it's all collected with people's collective of people. And these people come and go, things change. It's like a living organism. Why is that? Yeah, it's not just a static thing. So last one, Riot come out and say they, like stand on certain topics. And then there's like, the neon deal, for example, which spits in the entire face of that, it's just like, okay, like, it's too contradictory, like, my brain just like crashes when I think of that stuff. Because he is literally crazy. So yeah, I don't tend to trust that stuff. But like, What's stopping every employee of Riot coming out and going against this stuff? All you know, I mean, like, that's, that's more impressive to me. So there's a lot of virtue signaling that can go on like Domino's is obviously different. They're just saying we're shit, they're not saying, Oh, we stand for this, we don't stand for this, right, blah. I think owning your shit is important I, on a very micro scale, like, I was very wrong about Guild esports, which came out I thought they were cash grab, I've got like a 12 minute video on my YouTube channel, which is still live now, where I just literally just attempt to destroy them for like, 12 minutes and just discuss how bad they are for the industry and everything. And in like 9 to 10 months, they just, like, prove me massively wrong. So I realized that and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna, gonna put something out about this, because like, I felt I felt indebted to them. I was like, I fucked up, you prove me wrong. Here's your flowers and stuff, you know, right. And I tried to uphold that way of living. But like, I've realized over time, trying, like expecting other people to operate, the way you do, is ridiculous. It's just, you're just going to be disappointed time after time. You know, so I expect what we get in esports right now. And whenever a deal comes out, where there's actually a numerical value attached to it, or there's a bit of transparency there by, I will stand up, and I'll applaud them. And I recognize it. And I'll be pleasantly surprised. But the default reaction for me is okay, I'm not going to find out about this, I'm going to try and ask and then it's going to get shielded, I'll never know. And then I kind of the industry, you know, so it's a really tough one mate. And I asked why I'm trying to get more people into this line of work. The only thing is like, it's not as perceived to be as sexy because you're not interviewing the players, like you're really like a lot of the journalists in our industry, realistically, like Eminents Stan, who just want to be close to the teams and the players and the orgs. And they want to be there at the after parties and get the autographs and stuff. Why I have stories about that, that I can tell you off of here, right? Well, literal journalists literally like broadcast talent and stuff, like doing shit they shouldn't do in their position, in my opinion, at least right? Because you're there to do a job. You're not there to be a fan with privilege access, like so. Yeah, I think a lot of them are in it for the wrong reasons. So the ones that seem to be in it for the right reasons. I'm trying to do what I can, because the competition helps me in a sense, it definitely helps the industry. There's no there's no downside to having more people who are in the pursuit of truth, in my opinion. So

Kyle Warren: 43:03

Exactly. I mean, in you know, and I actually interviewed Jacob, Jacob Wolf on this podcast a little while ago, and it was, you know, and I, I had a hard time believing that he was like, 23 years old, you know, I mean, like, it was, it was, it was crazy to see his established career at such a young age. And I think one of one of what you touched on is, like, one of the reasons why he's good at what he does is because he he's there to do a job. And he does the job. You know, there's no, you know, of course, as a human, and it's hard to detach some of the emotion from it, but he does a really good job at it, you know, and he reports facts, you know, yeah, at least from what I've seen, you know, so it's, uh, it kind of helps you stand out, like in a in a in a sense. You know what I mean?

Adam Fitch: 43:43

oh, yeah. All I will say on that is, yeah, that's fine. People are entitled to their stances. I think he's a good guy. I think he has done a lot of great work in the past. So I can say that there's also things that worry me, based on what I've heard, but I have no verifiable proof on those things at this point, so I'm not going to tie him with a brush that I'm unaware of. But yeah, I mean, on the business side, Jacob occasionally dropping into some business stuff. There's me there's Kevin Hitt. And then there's basically a bunch of journalists PR regurgitaters as in business reporting. And I'm trying to light a fire under the ass by calling them out and changing that, you know, I'd love love to So look, I with, with Jacob like to be completely, completely candid. Like, it's hard to not realize that he's done well with himself because he takes every chance he can to remind people of that, which is not my style. But yeah, I remember there was a conversation about say, I think it was like using lawyers when you're signing contracts and fielding job offers and making sure that you get the right terms and so if you remember he tweeted out like "when I was filled, like going through all 30 job offers. I got, like, when I left ESPN", I'm just like, come on as like, there's a time and place for all this stuff. So he's more boastful than than I am in my, in my life, which is fair enough. I tend to just like, keep it moving. And I take criticism and praise the exact same. It just goes, he goes, and then I carry on, you know, I mean, it's like, it's the smallest knock, but so fair play, he does what he needs to do. I don't have any proof of him doing anything wrong, so I'm not gonna assume he does anything wrong. But yeah, I certainly don't mention sometimes. And look, I think we'd benefit from other than doing business reporting more, or the same as anyone who wants to step up and do it properly, like we benefit from that is what I should say.

Kyle Warren: 45:45

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's funny, like, it's funny with this industry, the way it is, like, you know, it, we're in this wild, wild west, and like, the I think what people don't tend to realize is that we are actually creating an industry that wasn't there 20,30 years ago, you don't I mean, like it, like, you look at marketing agencies. Well, that's been around since you know, early, you know, like, that's been around for 100 years, you know, like,

Adam Fitch: 46:08

Selling shit. Right. Yeah.

Kyle Warren: 46:10

I mean, they're, you know, commerce, you know, clothing, food, I mean, these are all like, they have industry best practices, they do this. And I think that's what a lot of people sometimes forget is that, like, we're in this process of like, building it, and I, this is just my take on it. I feel like if that message was communicated at every level, you know, then companies would not need to hide behind numbers, they would not need to hide behind certain decisions. Because if if the if the community understands the message, if we all come together on this one thing that like, we're still building something, this is not established, like this is this is not like, you know, this is brand fucking new, you know, now, it may not solve the problem entirely. Humans are going to be humans. But like, I think that's just my take that it would be a lot better received. It's like, Oh, well, remember, we're building something, this is not something we're undoing. This is not something that's been done before. Like, we're creating it, if you find that something can be done better, speak up, you don't even like we need to hear that,

Adam Fitch: 47:07

Though, somewhat goes against the narrative, that soul to get a lot of the investment in the industry, though, in that

Kyle Warren: 47:12

And that sucks

Adam Fitch: 47:13

With this, this has grown so quick, like football took 100 years to be a commercial success, we took 15,20 years, you know, like the narratives that sold is like people say, we're in a ever changing industry or rapidly growing industry. And I don't see that much that changes, like realistically now. We're at the point where the status quo is almost there, like things are updating and a new title can come out and blow some shit out of the water. And I just try to remind people that like, as a as an industry, there are no like best practices, because yeah, we are building the plane as we're flying it right. And there's an identity issue, in my opinion, where you can see it among teams right now. I can name some examples, but something corresponds industry something where immediate industry, and they operate very differently. So if we're trying to be a sport, that's that's one thing, and we can mimic the way they do things, which is what Overactive Media doing with with Toronto Defiant Toronto Ultra, Mad Lions previously Splyce, or you can go by the media way, and the lifestyle kind of content way of culture, your Fazeand your 100 Thieves, OpTic's. Yeah. Optics for sure. Yeah, so I think we don't know which ones can be successful, there's a chance none are all very successful. We don't know what approach is best yet. So operating as if as best standards and best practices is pointless for me at the moment. And also, that's why I think like, a certificate at this point, makes no real sense. And plus, it's not a specialized industry in that sense. Well, as again, it's, it's a bunch of subcultures. But within that, there are all the same jobs that have been before besides playing video games professionally. You've got people in production, people in event ops, you've got journalists, you've got talent, like all the people behind the scenes, people who work in finance, generating revenue, leading teams, all this kind of stuff, right? So it's the same, but it's just got all the nuances of that esports has. So for me, like trying to like operating as if it's in a mad unicorn. In a sense, it is it's not been done before, but also it just takes from a bunch of other places is like, you can't teach esports specialist knowledge beyond like the very basics of what the industry is, right? So that's why I think we need more gatekeep gatekeeping in the industry, because I think liking video games isn't a qualification. Some people think they should work in esports "oh I love League of Legends. I played it for 10 years." And so what what do you bring to the table? Like when you join an organization, what can you bring besides excitement? Right, right, you know, I mean, so so I don't know what what form the gatekeeping would take but I'm all for people with experience and qualifications from other industries from universities coming into esports as long as they obviously want want to be in it for esports and not because it's like sports or whatever. Because if you come from Sports for 30 years and you come into esports, you're used to operating one one way. And if you're viewing this industry as the exact same thing, you're going to operate the same way. And then you probably get left behind, right? So yeah, I it's a tough one where it's very familiar, like on a granular level, but on a macro level, it is entirely different. And it's kind of identity crisis, from people within it as to what what this is supposed to be and what form is going to take. And I don't I don't think there's any right answer at the moment. In fact, we will not point where we know that yet. We have to wait until this promise of it blowing up actually is realized, presuming it will. This is like a very big gamble. This entire industry still, like the Overwatch Leagues is probably the industry's biggest gamble. But like I think the industry is a big gamble. Because it's as the same old narrative. And I've said this a couple times before, but in 10 years, esports will be X. And then we get a year on it's like, in 10 years, esports of X a year on. And this is like, when is this mystical timeframe going to come in, come into play where it's now huge, and everyone's making money and, and we've got, we've got everything figured out? I don't I don't know when that will be. So I tend to try and stay away from that. And I'm just I do remind people, we're building the plane as we fly it. That's what makes it daunting. And fucking annoying sometimes, but also what makes it really exciting. Because you're you, you feel part of something, right? And it's like, if I get in early now in 20 years, like, this shits gonna be insane. It's not even gonna be recognizable, right? How it is now in terms of like, where it'd been 20 years if the last 20 years have been anything to go by at least. So that's, that's where I get most of my excitement from. But my job yet is to look at the negatives, unfortunately.

Kyle Warren: 51:38

Yeah, I mean it but you know, it's there's always two sides of story, you know what I mean? Like, there's always there's always, you know, the positive wouldn't be positive, if you didn't have like, the real or the, or the negative or whatever, you know, whatever you want to call it. And you brought an intersting, you know, like, in depending on like, we don't need to go too far down the rabbit hole we can if we want, but like, you know, the question I have about like, how, like the certificate that you mentioned, you know, obviously that was a huge topic about two, three weeks ago, but a month ago? Well, my date, my time period is so fucked right now. So it's probably about two weeks ago, that they really they really do. Like my, you know, from your perspective, like, do you think that just the timing of what they were doing was off? Or do you think that it's completely irrelevant to begin with?

Adam Fitch: 52:22

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I don't think timing I think, I think the premise was naffed. I think the intentions, depends, if you want to believe their intentions, they were good. If you want to believe the intentions that came across via the project and the product, not good. I think the communication fucked them massively big. So I think from from beginning to end, from top to bottom, like there's, there's a place for something. But it wasn't this, right? And, yeah, I've got a lot of information on this. I've I've spoken to people and I literally seen the messages I sent out when they decided to dead the project. And they called it they said that they got Super Leagued because like 13 advisors pulled out within like four hours. But I also know there was no centralized communication hub for this. So they would go out to each of the the advisors and ask some bullshit gamma part of it, give them a small bit of equity, but a lot of them, most of them, maybe all of them, maybe not. Mate, I'd say most just to be safe, didn't actually know what the product was when it was going live. It Right. So yeah, Monti said on four horsemen that he was actually contacted. Imagine if he just said yes to that. And then it went live like two days later. And he didn't have time to go through and look at things he'd be attached to a product, which doesn't really represent his views and such right. And I think some people may have been caught up in that. But also, if they're attaching themselves to something, they need to be aware of what they're attaching themselves to, right? Which makes me think it is somewhat of a status game for some of them. So I think communication was Paul, because look like that the advisors were actually there to be mentors. So you pay the $400, you pass certificate, and you get into a discord where you can theoretically be mentored by a network with these people. That was not communicated. They were working or attempted to work with universities and colleges to get scholarships. A lot of the advisors were gonna put up money themselves as scholarships to get people in it for free. There was the the pay what you can afford, kind of model on the study guide, which wasn't pushed enough. They said they were trying to eradicate nepotism, and cronyism, but them assembling their board was cronyism, because they just picked their friends. They said they're going to try and eradicate gatekeeping Yes, but like they put a $400 prize pool on this and then said like, right gonna help identify who's good and who's not, or who's worthy of who's not which is a form of gatekeeping like everything they did was just antithetical to what they actually thought it was going to do. And they didn't even make use of the people they had involved

Kyle Warren: 54:51

Gotcha.

Adam Fitch: 54:52

And look like they had Jens Hilgers, Malady Both, and Sebs from BitKraft themselves so like they had three BitKraft people, which is venture capital firm, probably the most prevalent in the industry, and they're saying they're not doing it to make money. Why the fuck would they be involved if they didn't wanna make money? That's their whole job. That's the whole MO. That's why you're all working to make money. So how can you say this was an any sort of like attempt to make, it's just mental to me? Like it was some sort of, like gift to the people? And look what happened if I suddenly have like CEOs from G2, Flyquest, Misfits, Evil Geniuses involved? What if those organizations because they're attached to it via the literal head of their organization said, you know, what we're going to filter it through, and only ECI applicants in the US are going to get even considered for this year. magically, faster happen. I heard that wasn't the case. But you never know what could happen in a month or two, right? down the line. There's a bunch of bullshit, I could go on with this. So while I would love to say it was one thing, I think it was a mild amalgamation of just a lot of incompetence, a lot of, I'd say echo chamber, but like, they didn't even actually consult the people who were there to be consulted with. So a lot of people didn't know what it was going to be like when we went out. So from from top to bottom, front to back all of it, I'm just like, What the fuck is this? And that's without even touching the actual exam itself. Yeah, the content of it, which like they had no educators on the board, they had no comms people on the board, they had a PR agency, and the communication was still shit. So like, it's just like, gross to me gross incompetence all the way through. As all the information which may come out, at some point, they said, it's paused. I've heard from a few people that is dead, it's not paused but it's scrapped. And they only did it after the four hour thing where like, a third, I think it was literally 30% of the advisors said they want to be removed. So while not a fan, as you might be able to tell!

Kyle Warren: 56:40

Yeah, I was like, I liked the idea of it, you know, like, I liked the you know, like the idea of having because, again, because the problem in this industry is that, like, what, at least from what I viewed and, or the way, the way I viewed is that the the people in esports don't know how to communicate what they want, you know, they don't know how to communicate, and then people who want to be in the industry, and

Adam Fitch: 56:59

People were saying, the ECI should be this. And I'm who have the skills don't know how to communicate the actual skill set beyond the title. And I think it's not one or the other, I think it's both of them at the same time. Because even with me, like I have a very, like, you know, like, very customer centric, very relationship driven very this and that. And there's a there's a really, there's a challenge, especially with the younger age of like, quantifying, you know, your value and, and listing s ills that are transferable to t e job that you're applying f r, you know, okay. And so t at's just the way I that's j st the way I view and that's k nd of why I'm actually a part o the Enlight program, like the nit from Eunice Chen. Yeah, eah. And I think that's a antastic program. like, that's literally existing already. It's literally Enlight. Yeah, I remember. And she was part of the board, of course, as well, the advisory board for ACI which Yeah, I don't know. But sorry, as you were saying, Enlight like, yeah.

Kyle Warren: 57:58

Yeah, it's okay. In it, it goes back to what we talked about really, like way earlier. Like, it's like, you know, these I learned more from podcasts from, from live speakers from people who have done it from just just random videos that I can watch whenever I want and learn when I want, you know, and so, part of that, kind of, like, I just thought about this, like, it kind of makes you wonder, like, is, you know, is the future, like, the way we get there? Is this by individual companies, like what Eunice is doing, or is it by a board? You know, because like a board is very similar to that kind of like a higher education system, you know, and we're finding out that that's not really working as well, you know, with with non specialized specific industries.

Adam Fitch: 58:37

Yeah, yeah, dude, trying to get official body in esports is impossible. Because it's so fragmented.

Kyle Warren: 58:45

Yeah.

Adam Fitch: 58:45

As I said before, like the and, is pretty obvious at this point. like they've all got each scene. Each game has got its own ecosystem at play, right? And they're all controlled differently. So you're to have an official Board of absolutely anything in esports realistically, I think won't happen across the board. I think it'll happen in some small cases, micro cases, but envisioning like Valve, Riot Games all the organizations all the other developers Activision, Blizzard all that kind of stuff all saying "yes, we recognize is one thing." Like is going to be very, very tough. And then like, yeah, we're going to appoint these people to be in charge of whatever it may be. So we've got like esports bar which is like the lawyer stuff by Bryce Blum, pile of shit, we've got ECI pile of shit, they've got no say we've got the British eSports Association. They're trying to be official, but they're not official. We've got like Newell and NSE for like universities sports in the UK that both claim to be like the national body neither actually realistically are. Like it's a bunch of shit. And it's not. It's not gonna go anywhere, but I just don't see a way in which that can happen because how can you govern an industry that's so fragmented and so nuanced? I don't even like the official stuff we've got with like the CSPPA like the Counter Strike player association, like it does fuck all light was assembled that like the LCS one, I'm pretty sure was being paid by Riot in some way. So it's just like, that's not in the best interest of the players I'll I don't know if we'll ever see like an official body of anything realisticly.

Kyle Warren: 1:00:16

I just don't think it works, you know, I like at least at this at least in this stage of it, you know?

Adam Fitch: 1:00:22

Yeah, they only have value if people place value even if people believe in it. It's like ECI like that that qualification wouldn't mean anything unless employees were recognizing it and potential employees wanted to grab it because they thought it helped their chances are, it's the same with Bitcoin. Same with Dogecoin, it's the same with dollars. And same with pounds. It's all beliefs and values, like belief systems, which drives the value, right, and the market decides on that. And so I don't know if some quote unquote, regulatory board comes into esports. And we just don't take it serious. And we just go,"well, we're not going to play by those rules, because like, we're not mandated to," unless it's like literally like Riot forcing it or something along those lines, you know, but as long as it's not like the United Front, and everyone's appointed this, like, it's not gonna fucking happen. So like ECI, like, it's not going to happen, unless you've got mainstream adoption of it across all of the prevalent organizations, in my opinion. And even then, you'll have people like me, like Richard like Thorin, and like everyone in the community actually just fucking rattling off against them. And they'll have to make a decision. And typically the fans when we just saw that, like the Super League, in European football or soccer, you know, so the fans and the people who actually produced the money, the ones whose money you want, they tend to dictate a lot, they hold a lot of power, especially in the industry where it's not making that much money.

Kyle Warren: 1:01:38

Well, sure, I mean, you look at there's an example outside of esports that I want to bring in, it's extremely relevant, like you look at, you know, Dave, or I mean, this easier example, Taylor Swift, you know, like she, she didn't feel like she was getting the right, you know, say in her latest records, unless you feel like she was getting paid enough. So what did she do? She went and re recorded the same album, and, and put in, published it under her studio and got all the rights, and she didn't have to abide by this contract that was signed. And same thing with Dave Chappelle, you know, what he did was he understood his value to where, you know, he may at while he may have signed his life away in a shitty Netflix deal, you know, that that gave him that didn't give him anything? Well, he also has a rabid fan base, you know, he has that he has a massive fan base that he just told them not to watch it, therefore, it hurt the pockets of Netflix, and therefore they were forced to renegotiate the contract says, I mean, it's, it's insane. You know, and and like, like, yeah, you can say he signed his you said he signed away in this contract. But like, was it right to begin with? Or was it just one person holding power that forced him to do that to get to where he wanted to be? But now, it's a very open, it's kind of just like a, it's like a pirate ship. You know what I mean? Like, everyone's kind of like fending for themselves. And it's the people. It's democratizing. You know, a lot of this a lot of this content is democratizing, you know, like money now, it's tomorrow, people are great in their own economies,

Adam Fitch: 1:03:02

For sure. Imagine if someone says like, we're going to be the de facto Counter Strike circuit, right? And they say, we're going to literally put on the best thing, and everyone's going to want to join us and not join you. And then the funds just like "no, I don't like the product, we prefer what we've got in place," like they're not going to last long. They're not going to last,

Kyle Warren: 1:03:19

Right?

Adam Fitch: 1:03:20

So even if all the teams are aboard if the funds are like now this is fucked. Like, if no one's watching, then you're not generating the money that you need from sponsorships and everything else your broadcast deals, apparently, which are worth fucking so much money, apparently. And ticket sales, merch, like all the other fuckfare that goes on at these events, right. So that is the best way to like money is the only language these a lot of these companies will actually understand. Right? And fortunately, and unfortunately, esports funds are the crux of that, of course, but they're not worth very much at the moment. And the task is getting them to be worth a lot. And I think part of that is waiting for like the generational just like aging up of recurrent funds, where they have a disposable income because at the moment is quite a lot of young fans, right? You want them to be 3040 or maybe like 25 up to however old where they can afford to just buy all the shit that they want to flog. You know, whereas if you 15 it's a lot harder to be able to afford$100 hoodie. That's only released every three months for like 12 seconds. Like it's ridiculous.

Kyle Warren: 1:04:26

Sounds like your target 100 thieves there

Adam Fitch: 1:04:28

I'll target anyone who does that? They came to mind they came to mind. Yeah, but yeah, like,

Kyle Warren: 1:04:32

I'm a fan. I'll gladly do that. I like I like, that's that I enjoy that. But I can afford that. You know what I mean?

Adam Fitch: 1:04:38

That's, that's fair. Exactly. And your the kind of fan that we want in esports, right? collectively, because you pay for shit. And you'll you'll help afford like these overblown, like salaries that players don't actually deserve at the moment because they're not justifying it. But then again, we're getting that in journalism now as well, a little bit where there's a few writers who are getting paid way more than I'll ever be able to recoup They're willingly accepting that because you would wouldn't you like, if you are less less for some random numbers out there and I will not necessarily allude to anyone who I'm referring to here. I could all I would say is that perhaps up and coming and take whatever you want from that ridiculous hint. But say, and I will make up the numbers even I do the numbers say they're getting paid 200 grand a year, but they recoup and they generate 25 grand worth in revenue revenue? How the fuck do you justify having them attached like you don't, but, if you know you're not bringing that much to the table, but they are offering you that you're going to take that shit as long as you can, right. And this is very different point. But like, this is what we're starting to see in journalism, which is obviously something we see in the player front a little bit as well, whether paid a lot more than what they're actually worth. But you kind of have to have that skin in the game if you're viewed as not taking shit seriously, and you can't progress at all. So it's a bit of a bit of a fucked up dynamic. But yeah, I think more information will come out about that up and coming thing I was mentioning, maybe not for me, I'd love to. I don't think I'm necessarily in a position to do so. But yeah, some stuff that I don't necessarily agree with an industry which I'd love to change. But some days I can't. And I'm trying and trying to grapple with the fact that I can't change shit. Like I was looking on a podcast yesterday. And I was just, we were basically trying to put the world to rights like this is how everything should be. And then I was like, "Yeah, but like, I can moan as much as I want on Twitter and write as many articles and op eds as I want. But like, that doesn't necessarily have to change anything unless it incites the right people to make that change and to agree with me and stuff. Right?" So trying to grapple with that, as someone who's I view it, like we're putting out the truth, in an attempt to make the industry more honest. And those better.

Kyle Warren: 1:06:53

Yeah.

Adam Fitch: 1:06:53

Like trying to grapple with the fact that I realistically can't change shit by myself. That's, that's been a fun one trying to get my head around for the past couple, couple weeks realistically, you know, but it just makes me want to keep putting out the right information, or at least put out as much as I can especially like the financial side, which we've just discussed quite a bit. Power is literally as much as I can on that front. And then everyone can make their mind up, but my job's done. My job is like getting that information, I put it out there like you do whatever you want with it. I'm not here to fix or fuck the industry up, I don't care anymore. It's just like, I'll do my job. And then the rest is up to everyone else, you know, I don't have a huge amount of faith in a lot of the executives, we've got an industry right now, who are the decision makers?

Kyle Warren: 1:07:33

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's just a lack of maturity in the industry, to be honest, you know, it's it's a in there. And there's, I think one of the biggest challenges or something that I saw was that, you know, esports is like a pull from, from a lot of different things. Like it's, it's, it's, it's sports, but then it's got this huge media component to it, you know, and it's got individual personalities and their own economies, and you have orgs, and you have subcultures, and you have all of this operating at the same time. But I think it's a natural human inclination is a natural human reaction to go off of what history tells us, you know, but I think what we're, you know, the way I see is that we're, we're, we're looking at the wrong history, we're looking at the history of media, the history of sports, the history of this, but instead of, let's look at the history of people, let's look at the history of communities, let's look at the history of like, how these things were built. And like, I think we're, I think we're in the right, to look at history, but I think we're looking at the wrong history, you know, to make us feel better, you know what I mean? Because if you look at people, you know, people don't change, people do the same shit people, like, you know, like, even with what we're doing with like, the, the whole you know crypto and, and, and blockchains and all these in, in smart contracts. Like, it's not, it's not the technology, that's the same, that's the new thing. But you look at the adoption of the internet, like, you know, in the in the late 90s, the internet was a fad, it was stupid, like, you know, there was there was, it's gonna fail. You look in the late 90s, early 2000s, there was a shitload of attention, all this investment, you know, like, like, all all this money being put in the industry, but they didn't know what they were pouring it into. And then about 3% of the company survived, like Amazon, Google, Facebook, you know, there was some gems that came from that. But the human behavior around like, this gold rush mentality is not new.

Adam Fitch: 1:09:21

No, no.

Kyle Warren: 1:09:22

So and i i say that example, you know, we don't have you know, like, I, I'm still learning about crypto, you know, so I don't know a whole lot about it. But you know, you look, instead of looking at the history of technology, you just look at the history of humans. And there's your answer. You know, like, how did humans do this in the 90s? How did humans do this in the 80s? In the 70s, in the 60s, okay, well, how to, like, even if there was a lot of social issues that were not worked through, people still behave it people people aren't unique, like we already like, people are people, you know?

Adam Fitch: 1:09:53

Then the medium changes but less about, like, yeah, expecting like human nature to change over the course of like, 100 years or what is obviously not, it's not gonna happen. So I understand what you're saying. And I and I kind of alluded to it like the the marketing thing I was on about earlier like you study the principles and work out how the fucker how these fuckers operate, and then you just change the medium changes, but the maybe the message changes but like, ya know, it's actually the messaging changes, but the message itself is the same, always the same. So yeah. Now what we've got to do is package that up and sell it to everyone, and then become like, instant trillionaires. Why shark shark is your theory and in your way, your perspective, actually your philosophy, so I'll let you have that. But if you copy a company, like nought point 1% or something, I don't receive like some NFT. Like I'm seeing now. Who was it like Colin, Colin and Samir, who do like create economy stuff? Like what did they do? Where everyone it was mad some mad split share? thing? I don't really understand this. Not a lot. I know. I know the technology is gonna change shit, but I don't know the applications in which they're useful. Yeah, I don't think digital art bullshit, whatever. I don't I really don't understand that. And I saw people by tweets and and tweets getting deleted. So I'm just like, Okay, well, you're not actually buying the tweet anyway. Are you? Okay? So some things make sense to me. Some don't? Are the complete application of even like Bitcoin, for example, will it be a currency in the necessary sense? Or is it gonna be like a value store like gold? Or how will it be applied in future? Because if I have Bitcoin, I don't want to be buying the Domino's Pizza with it. I mean, if I have like no point, even if it's like point 0001 of the Bitcoin, like, if that's going to inflate, keep growing in value, then I'm not using that shit, I don't know if it has any application in that sense. But if it is a value store, then that's, that's interesting, right? And then, so I, yeah, I'm reluctant to try and fully understand the utility of everything, I just want to understand, like the ethos behind the technology. And then lastly, just going to, I think, rapidly evolve now, like, as we say, esports rapidly evolves, I think, like the actual crypto blockchain thing will rapidly evolve, hopefully just evolved to a point where his real purpose, you know, like, specialized like the nifties and stuff like, like the concept of digital ownership, whether it is in the form of like, a nifty as we know it now or something else? I don't know. But digital ownership in the future, obviously, is a huge opportunity. And I can't see a world in which is not pivitol.

Kyle Warren: 1:12:19

Very, yeah, it and I think it's important to like, you know, like, right now, there's going to be a lot of industries that are affected by it. And I think the application to esports is the most fascinating, but I think it's the least known, you know, there's So, but the, but instead of like, without getting into, we're just gonna generalize it here a little bit, but like, it's not necessarily like the industries that it's impacting in the value that it's creating right now. But it's like, it's the underlying technology behind it, like having a smart contract, and having visibility, you know, and having like, transparency, like those are the problems, at least the way I see it, that it's it solves, you know, it's it's public. It's transferable, you know, there's royalties, you can attach to it, there's, there's, there's three to four to five to 10 year value, you can put in that token, but it's up, a lot of it is up to the person who's doing it. So the people who are doing the right thing, and thinking about the long term. And again, this goes back to the community, right, like community is like this huge topic that's coming up. And it's really important. And so, the people who know how to build a community, I feel like the people who are gonna thrive, small example, not related to esports. But kinda because Gary Vee Gary Vaynerchuk owns he's a minority owner in the Minnesota Rokr, you know, but he did, he's got he created his own NFT project that regardless of what initial value that he put in that specific token, that gives, what it does, what every token does, is give people three years of access to an exclusive conference that only those token holders have. that's valuable. You know, like that's, you get one on one time with Gary, you get to like go to the things that he only shares about in these conferences. Like you get insider knowledge you get exclusively So, you know, there's that's, to me one example of a person who's doing it right.

Adam Fitch: 1:14:00

Yeah, you don't I mean, I just remember the reputation of blockchain in esports young 2018 I remember there was someone trying to pitch it to me, like I was gonna buy some I don't know, I was trying to pitch it to me and so then they will call that Intergalactic gaming and I remember they were the subject of plenty a ribbon in like 2019 maybe 2018 but they were saying like smart contracts gonna change everything and we're gonna build Ethereum and on the blockchain and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like everyone just laughed them off the face of the earth then in esports like it was not none of it was taken seriously. Like it was exclusively seen as a scam Ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme. However, however you want to frame it, but now there's all these people getting into a Ethereum. And I think like memes are like the somehow like the greatest form of communication and understanding we've got on the internet right now. So like when, like when, when something like Doge comes about some something about the memey nature of it. And again, nature of it is, it's crazy. And that's where the value is right? Like, it's got no value, but the value is derived from the fact it's got no value, but everyone's believing in it because it's a meme, it's ridiculous, right? So, so just seeing how eSports like within esports, cuz that's the industry, I operate within the one I paid the most attention to, unfortunately, seeing how they changed while we were changing our collective kind of perspective and point of view on things is interesting. But I think it's also just because like that, the the utility of it, and the usage is changing over time, right? And so I don't know where it will be in 10 years, or if it's going to impact media journalism in all of it, isn't it? So I just don't know how, and it scares me a little bit. And makes me reluctant to try and understand everything right now. But I also do, I'm 26 I feel old as shit, because every day is just something new now. Where I'm just like, what the fuck is this? And is it safe moon people are on about now.

Kyle Warren: 1:15:59

I don't, I don't I don't I don't even know, I don't even know,

Adam Fitch: 1:16:02

I think that's the latest thing people are investing in is probably a crypto of some sort. But apparently, like three apps to be able to, like buy into it and all this kind of shit, I don't understand them. So I'm just watching from afar. If I had, well, I work in esports journalism, a lot of a lot of money. But if I did, I put it in a couple of them. But a lot of them I'll be staying away from I put it that way, until I know what the fuck actually got. But the whole Gamestop thing scares me. Because the amount of people who got involved because it was a meme, right? And they thought, oh, we're gonna get shit tons of money out of this and probably took loans out and stuff, or like put money in that they didn't really have in a sense, just to then presumably lose, or we didn't hear a lot of stories about the post blow owners gains or did we so fuck, you know that that kind of stuff makes me very reluctant to get involved. But it is interesting and it to me, so I couldn't wrap my head around where it was gonna go. Like you can hypothesize a lot. But like, it just gets to a point where I don't have the knowledge of where this could go. So like, there's a limit is like a gate to like, the next level for me like, Well, what application could be and there are people at the forefront of that who I follow. But I'm not I'm not there yet. I would love to see how our industry adopts it in like 10,15 years. I wish we could fast forward and see that because it's going to change everything Surely,

Kyle Warren: 1:17:19

I think I think we've already have we've shed a small light on on on how it will because like you look at you look at Activision. I mean they made I think it was like 1.2 or 1.4 billion on on weapon skins in Warzone. I mean, so we've already we've already proven that like, it's, it's going to happen. You don't I mean, like, like the gamer gamers like already understand the concept of like the digital ownership and like the you know, and the idea of like owning a skin like, you know, being able to trade skins on a secondary market. You know, like I

Adam Fitch: 1:17:52

stuff Yeah, the value is derived by them by the amount on there and how much the demand is, right the highest buyer. Yeah, yeah, fair point

Kyle Warren: 1:17:59

And how many are available? How many were created? How many? You know? So like, that's, I think that's scratching the surface. But I think that's like one example that we kind of currently are in today that we can, like, okay, I can see how this works. Yes, you know what I mean? But I'm sure there's plenty that both you and I don't even know about? You know what I mean?

Unknown: 1:18:15

No doubt about it. I don't know, I'll be the first to say that. I'm convinced on a lot of things.

Kyle Warren: 1:18:21

Well, I think to tell you too, that I'm like it's a great place to be because people who claim that they're experts in this industry, I don't trust them. Like

Adam Fitch: 1:18:29

That's in line with my my column on that. So

Kyle Warren: 1:18:33

Anyone who claims that they're like an expert and know exactly what's going to happen, you know, like, in who's a guru in a scene that's existed for less than 10 years total. Like if you look at Bitcoin in its entirety, like fuck right off, you know, but want to want to start wrapping things up here, man, you know, like, one point I wanted to touch on that I want to ask a question is like, you know, you're you mentioned you were trying to bring people into this industry, you're trying to help grow it the right way. You're trying to help bring more transparency? What is it it's for someone who wants to be in a position like you or to be, like, like to choose like this similar career path? Like, what would you What would you tell them, You know?

Adam Fitch: 1:19:12

Man, like, I have no formal training in journalism. So I will probably benefit from a little bit of that, but also, I've benefited a lot from doing and watching. So like that, it's always when you want to be like a writer, the obvious thing and everyone says it but it's so fucking true. That's the thing is I read a lot and then write a lot and and get people hopefully, like whether it's a family member or someone to read your writing. And it's simple enough where they can understand what the fuck you're on about, and you're on the right path, right. So I think there's no, there's no shortcut. When it comes to just the graphs like just pumping out the reps that you have to put in like, you're not going to go to the gym once and come out looking like like Sylvester Stallone in like when he's 30 or something, you know, it's really So I think I view it, I view it that way as no replacement for the graft it takes to put in a lot of work and one. So that's on the writing front, but in the actual specific journalism front, identify the beat you want to work on, make it as specific as possible at first. So if it's Call of Duty esports, if it's microtransactions, like all these different things, these little areas, because I've got very broad area, even though it's niche, it's very fucking broad, because it covers every game in the sense like any publisher, any company that gets into I was stupid, even though it kind of picked me. So like pick, like League of Legends, esports, or whatever. And then and then the most underrated aspect of journalism is networking, by by far is being friends with people and providing value to them. So when the time comes, they can provide value to you. That's that's the the mechanism that it took me a little bit to understand. And still, I could be a lot better at networking now. I'm trying, but also, I have to, I have to still write as well as now and justify, justify my employer me being employed, you know, I don't get I don't get paid to just sit in zoom calls, nor would I want to. So like, I recommend people identify the key people in their chosen beat, get into conversations with them, follow them, reply to them on Twitter, eventually, they'll follow you back on myself, or they followed you back straight away, then Congrats. And don't just go into it and say, "Hey, have you heard anything about this?" like, it's not gonna work that way. But as if you read like the psychology of influence, very, very good book, it talks about like the Rule of Reciprocity, where if I see you in the street, and I give you five pounds, you're gonna want to do something back to me, even if you don't know me, just like the Rule of Reciprocity I owe you. Right? So, whether it's like writing an article, or like a random shit news piece that you really don't care about, and you don't think readers will care about, but it provides value to the person who you think could help you out in the future, blah, blah, blah, like something like that, I'd like putting them in touch with the right person or even offering, like, genuinely to help someone out. Like all these things require a little bit of reciprocity in return in most people's like human psychology. So I'd say networking should be the number one priority in technical writing skill is seccond, we've got a lot of shit. We've got a lot of decent journalists who was shit writers. And that's, that's fine. Like, as long as they can string together sentences, and the and the editors can like tie it up. And you know, I mean, and they can like they convey the message correctly and protect their sources and make it clear as to what they're talking about. Like that's the the main crux of the job, right? So yeah, networking is massively underrated. When it comes to like tips dollars journalist for some reason, I don't know why it seems to all be angle on writing. It definitely, in my opinion, at least definitely shouldn't be bombing, like, on my phone, I got into writing because I liked movies and television shows. So I set up my own blog, and I wrote 1000 articles in a year for free got paid nothing. Because I enjoyed it. And then I was looking at, like, what the official trades are doing, like Hollywood Reporter, Variety, blah, blah, blah, I can learn from them. And I can also look back at myself three months on and kind of go,"Oh, that's where I fucked up, I wouldn't do that now." And you can see the progression and that keeps you on makes you want to keep going. So I did 1000 articles, like 250 words, at least probably 400, 500 words, sometimes features managed to interview some people for my own blog, which got to like 12,000 monthly readers, which was just me running it working four hours a night, like as long side my full time job, by the way, not getting paid, you know, I mean, like, it's just an interest. That's how it worked. But I didn't go into it expecting anything as I say I fell into the ship entirely, but as no, as far as I'm aware, and I'd love to know if there is no hack that will be able to help you bypass all of the work and all of the mundane bullshit it's not mundane at the time, but you look back and it's one day All I see is a lot of legwork that that needs to go into it and like forging like meaningful relationships and then working out how to maneuver within those efficiently without coming across as like I don't know maybe like manipulating someone or like only being friends in them because you want something from them there's all these different things you need to be able to do and you can only learn learn those things for experience which links back to the beginning where experience sometimes trumps like formal education and knowledge right so always comes full circle. The best podcasters in the world official illustrated by that.

Kyle Warren: 1:24:38

Awesome man! Yeah, no absolutely man. Well, Adam, it's been a treat having you on if you for people, for the people who are who are listening who you who don't know you like where would you want them to go? Like what, where do you want them to find you?

Adam Fitch: 1:24:54

If they can go on Google and type in Adam Fitch and I'll pop up at the top I'm good at SEO. But yeah, it's gone. @ByAdamFitch got fancy blue tech because I am myself even though they never asked me to actually prove I am myself, which I find very interesting while I just I just woke up like 1am at some point couldn't sleep went on Twitter. I was like, Oh, I'm verified for some reason. Okay, they know I'm me call last does anybody that says But yeah, but @ByeAdamFitch on Twitter. And you can read my work on the Dexerto.com.

Kyle Warren: 1:25:29

Awesome. Well again Adam, It's been a treat having you on you have a great rest your day.

Adam Fitch: 1:25:32

Thank you for having me, man, appreciate it.